Cain: I’m Against Abortion, Without Exceptions–But It’s Not

[Hush]

Cain: I’m Against Abortion, Without Exceptions–But It’s Not the Government’s Choice to Make

"So what I'm saying is, it ultimately gets down to a choice that that family or that mother has to make. Not me as president. Not some politician, not a bureaucrat. It gets down to that family, and whatever they decide, they decide. I shouldn't have to tell them what decision to make for such a sensitive issue."

http://www.breitbart.tv/cain-im-against ... e-to-make/

[Wahoo95]

True Conservative......believing in keeping the gov't out of our personal lives/decisions.

[doubloon]

True Conservative......believing in keeping the gov't out of our personal lives/decisions.

I think that's more the classic liberal or modern libertarian point of view than any conservative, we might be able to settle on conservative libertarianism but the jury is still out.

[Selectedmarksman]

Meh.... that's sort of a cop-out. He's trying to have it both ways, IMO.

As I understand it, there are two sides to the abortion issue:

Supporting side: It is the right of the woman to choose what to do with her body, to include abortions.

Opposing side: The child is a human being and, therefore, should be extended the same rights (to include the right to life) as defined and protected in the Constitution.

Change the issue. He could say "I'm absolutely against slavery, but I don't think it's my place to decide". If it comes down to whether or not Constitutional rights are being violated, you kind of have to give a thumbs up or down.

I'm making no pro- or anti- comment myself, just saying that this seems more like political weaseling then statement of principles to me.

[TROOPER]

No, I don't agree with that, Selected. I feel that same way about meth. I don't think anyone should do it, and I won't do it. But I also don't think its the government's place to make that call.

Also, I disagree with doubloon. Smaller government is a conservative point of view. However, I'd agree whole-heartedly that it is a libertarian-party point of view, and not a Republican-party point of view.

[silencertalk]

True Conservative......believing in keeping the gov't out of our personal lives/decisions.

Nonsense! You should not be able kill others simply because it is your personal choice.

"I made my kid, I can kill him." It does not fly.

I would not be unhappy at all or think there was anything wrong with it, if the govt made abortion completely illegal - even for rape.

Just saying - claiming it is a private personal decision is BS.

Want to know what upsets me also? I did not always feel this way when I was young and impressionable, and it scares me that I could have been in a situation where I would have given my ok to an abortion due to being influenced by society which gives the signals that it is a reasonable thing to consider. If it were just illegal it never would have been an option (ceptin' to criminals).

[doubloon]

I'm not sure which definition of conservative is smaller all around government but I'm open to learning one. All the conservative point of views I'm aware of want bigger government in different areas than liberal point of view ... sticking with modern interpretations of conservative and liberal.

If the moment of conception were the equivalent of a viable offspring I'd be in agreement with Robert but that would mean tossing an egg fertilized in a petri dish down the garbage disposal is murder.The problem for me is not even every fetus that reaches the third trimester is a viable offspring and I believe there is a difference between murder and abortion.

I will agree however that Mr. Cain appears to want his cake and eat it too, you're either pro-choice or you're not. In the meth example I come down on the same side as trooper, I'm definitely anti-prohibition.

[silencertalk]

that would mean tossing an egg fertilized in a petri dish down the garbage disposal is murder.

I am not sure every situation needs to have to be perfect in all ways to be the correct answer.

Why would you fertilize a human egg in a lab and then dispose of it and consider that ok?

Ok, let's not call it murder. Let's call it what it is - abortion. But let's have abortion be a crime called abortion.

Your viability argument is not perfect either. I have a 2 year old, and I can assure you she cannot survive on her own. The fact that a fetus cannot survive without the mother is not an argument to be able to destroy it.

[doubloon]

Agreed, not perfect and we're far, far from having a perfect definition of viable offspring or having everyone agree even if a perfect definition was available today. Many people are immune to logic.

My previous arguments around this topic have all been based on the parent having the choice of artificial life support after birth, not strictly the ability to "survive on its own" but the the ability to survive without artificial support. I think this meshes well with my DNR and right to die arguments, also not perfected.

Maybe a couple wants a baby but can't have one by natural methods so they go with in vitro fertilization. Maybe more than one egg is fertilized, maybe some make it to the appropriate stage of cell division for implant, maybe some don't, maybe a DNA screening says one embryo has progeria and the other doesn't.

Maybe the couple wants 1 baby and 2+ fertilized eggs make it to a viable stage for implant.

Is disposing of the overages a crime whether abortion or murder? Does the embryo have to be taken from a womb to call it murder?

I'm not claiming to have the answer but I believe the issue is too complicated to simply say conception == human or abortion == crime.

[Stu]

What is the legal cut off in this country currently? Third tri-mester is way too late. I was under the impression that it had to be done within the first tri-mester, but I don't know since I haven't had one.

[bakerjw]

There are states with no cut off date. Viability does not matter.

Here is an e-mail that I received last night.

Regarding Piers Morgan and the Abortion Question
Dear Friends,
The abortion issue is very serious. I believe strongly that this is true, and I believe that you do too.
Because the news media loves to make mountains out of mole hills, I want to be very clear about where I stand on abortion:
I am 100% pro-life, period.
Let me explain. In an interview yesterday with Piers Morgan on CNN, I was asked questions about abortion policy and the role of the President.
If you listen to the line of questioning, it is clear that Mr. Morgan was asking if I, as president, would simply "order" people to not seek an abortion.
My answer was focused on the role of the President. The President has no constitutional authority to order any such action by anyone. That was the point I was trying to convey.
As to my political view on abortion...again, I am pro-life. End of story.
As President, I will appoint judges who understand the original intent of the Constitution. Judges who are committed to the rule of law know that the Constitution contains no right to take the life of unborn children.
I will oppose government funding of abortion. I will veto any legislation that contains funds for Planned Parenthood. I will do everything that a President can do, consistent with his constitutional role, to advance the culture of life.
Friends, please know that I appreciate all of your support. Together, we will put America back on the right track.

Sincerely,
Herman Cain

[doubloon]

There are states with no cut off date. Viability does not matter.
...

The crux of the problem.

If you can believe the statistics, ~10% of abortion decisions are influenced [mostly] by involuntary circumstances (rape or fetal/maternal health issues) and the rest are basically lifestyle choices influenced by monetary or social pressures.

I didn't agree with the state abortion laws in place before Roe vs Wade but I like the way it used to be better than it is now that the fed mucked it up.

Personally I support non state/fed funded first trimester abortions for rape or fetal/maternal health issues, only after mandatory counseling where time permits and only with parental consent for minors. For fetal/maternal health issues I'm opposed to any criminalization of abortion based on gestational limits.

I'm on the fence for state funded counseling but against any fed funded programs.

The truth is most states already come close to what I consider to be morally "right", it's the funding portion of the equation I don't like. People who do not support abortion under any circumstances should not be required to finance even a penny of an abortion for someone else through taxes.

[TROOPER]

I don't believe that "rape" statistic by a long shot. If people are getting raped at that rate, then why aren't they simply taking an "the-morning-after" pill? And then my next problem with that is the very definition of a fertilized egg = a human. Invitro fertilization absolutely does involving fertilizing multiple eggs, and then taking the most viable fertilized egg and implanting it. That would mean in a legal sense of the word that disposing of the other fertilized eggs is murder. A law like that would be creating crime, and we'd see "murder statistics" sky-rocket without any societal change.

Same for "morning-after" pills. And truthfully, it would be the same for the ordinary birth control that women take known as "the pill" -- a light horomone that doesn't prevent eggs from getting fertilized, but instead, prevents the body from recognizing those fertilized eggs as fertilized, and thus initiating a normal pregnancy. As it is, those fertilized eggs are disposed of by the body as if they were not fertilized; IE, normal menses. If the law were changed to offer those fertilized eggs legal protection, then anyone on "the pill" would be comitting abortion, and by extension murder.


I'm much like a 99% in that I can only speak ill of rsilvers' plan without producing an alternative of my own, but that's the way it is. If fertilized egg = human, then there has been an unspeakable flood tide of murders both in the medical community, and especially in the private sector.

I'm not pleased about current abortion laws, but can we at least agree that federal dollars should NOT go to funding a single abortion? Especially when its an elective procedure?

[82nd airborne]

I believe in abortion. But I think they should have to wait untill the kid is 18 then give said kid an m4, then allow the mom to pick up her scissors.
Sheesh, what ever happened to responsibility? Having the blood of a child on your hands is not a pleasant thing to live with. If you dont want to raise some dudes kid, dont have sex with him.

[Selectedmarksman]

No, I don't agree with that, Selected. I feel that same way about meth. I don't think anyone should do it, and I won't do it. But I also don't think its the government's place to make that call.

Also, I disagree with doubloon. Smaller government is a conservative point of view. However, I'd agree whole-heartedly that it is a libertarian-party point of view, and not a Republican-party point of view.

My point is that those who believe abortion is murder argue that a life is being unjustly taken. In that case, it is the government's place to protect Constitutional rights from being violated.

[Hush]

Madcow has a timely video for this discussion.

And sometimes the gentleman drops off his hat....

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2 ... ff-his-hat

[Stu]

I'm in agreement with Trooper on this. I haven't thought much about this, but I would prefer the government to not provide any money towards abortions.