Concealed Carry- A Police Officers Prospective

[Hush]

Concealed Carry- A Police Officers Prospective

http://mikesbales.hubpages.com/hub/Conc ... rospective

[ronin111]

If this guy has this kind of attitude he's going to be upset with a lot of drivers in Missouri. Missouri does not require a permit for concealed carry in a vehicle. Additionally, there is not requirement to notify. He should assume everyone is armed.

I believe confiscation of the gun to verify if it's legal is crossing 4th amendment lines. Just having a gun is not probable cause to assume it's illegal.

[bakerjw]

I don't want to say that the guy's a dick, but he kind of sounds like it.

I've offered my carry permit to every cop that's pulled me over and have never had one ask to take my gun from me.
I had a local deputy give me a warning for speeding in a school zone because it was clear that I'm a law abiding citizen that didn't notice the flashing light by the school zone sign.
A Tn. state patrolman didn't even care that I had a gun on me. Just the fact that I was up front was good enough for him.
Then a while back I got busted doing 90 in a 60 and the N.C. state trooper was quite animated as he approached the car. He expected some hot shot young guy but got a laid back middle aged driver. I gave him my permit and he asked where my gun was. I told him and he asked for my registration which was in the glove compartment. The whole incident went from him being all gung ho to him being very laid back in seconds. He even dropped the speed to 75 on a 60 so that I didn't have to come back for court.

[bakerjw]

To add to ronin's comments. Do they even maintain a database of stolen firearms? That's one reason that I don;t like to buy 2nd hand guns from people at guns shows.

[ronin111]

To add to ronin's comments. Do they even maintain a database of stolen firearms? That's one reason that I don;t like to buy 2nd hand guns from people at guns shows.

I believe there are databases if it's reported. I'm sure there's somebody here that could verify.

[Libertarian_Geek]

“What if the officer doesn't ask about a weapon in the car, my state doesn't require that I tell him?”

I live in Missouri, and here –like in most states- you do NOT have to tell the officer that you have a weapon in the car unless he asks. That being said if I find out you have a CCW from dispatch or some other way I will not be very happy when I do ask you and find out that you are carrying a weapon. It is ALWAYS best to be straight forward about having a weapon.

But it's not illegal for me to not tell you. If I tell you, you're going to make me play 31 bullet pickup before I can go anywhere. If I don't tell you, then I'll just take my ticket and go.

"Why can’t I keep my gun with me since I've got a CCW and it’s a legal firearm?” Simply put, just because you may know it is legal doesn't mean that I do.

Are you also going to make sure that I payed for all of my mp3s? Are you going to make sure that I didn't kidnap a kid?

Once I have your weapon with me, along with your driver’s license and insurance I then return to my vehicle and provide dispatch with the serial number of the weapon as well as your license information.

In this scenario, did you search the whole car? Are you sure there's no backup gun? A bad guy isn't going to tell you he has a gun, he's going to stick it in your face.

I am handing you a bunch of bullets to be put straight in the cup holder, and that I am going to place your firearm in the back seat and the magazine a few feet away from it. I then explain that under no circumstances are you to mess with that weapon until I am out of sight. I then return to my vehicle and leave.

All of this s--t is just to make the cop feel safer when he pulls over an honest person. It's not actually preventing a bad guy from shooting a cop. It's giving him no real advantage over a bad guy. It's just being a dick.

Just as the cop has seen videos, so too have I. I've seen a nervous cop fire a round into the ground next to a civilian's head and I've seen one shoot an unarmed guy in a subway station. Me and the cop that pulls me over are safe with my gun in the holster on my hip. The last thing I want is for an unskilled cop to be handling my weapon and have an AD.

I'm not going to offer up any information that's not asked of me.

[ERMaag]

I can't read the article on my computer, but i'll comment on informing a police officer if you are carrying or not.

When I went through academy a few years ago, we were taught that it wasn't to check to see if the weapon was stolen, it was for officer protection. A police officer doesn't know if he just pulled over a criminal or not, so to be on the safe side you ask everyone if they have any weapons in the vehicle. If they weapon is locked in the truck or out of reach then just leave it be. If the weapon is within reach then we were taught to secure the weapon until after the stop is completed. Of course it was at the discretion of the police officer to follow this.

When I went through Ohio's CCW course, we were taught that when you were pulled to identify yourself as a permit holder and inform the police officer if you were carrying or not before the police officer got to your window. The police officers I knew would not secure the weapon if the person did this, and just ask to see the permit.

Some of you might have different experiences with police officers, I'm sure that each geographic location would be different from each other.

[Libertarian_Geek]

I can't read the article on my computer, but i'll comment on informing a police officer if you are carrying or not.

When I went through academy a few years ago, we were taught that it wasn't to check to see if the weapon was stolen, it was for officer protection. A police officer doesn't know if he just pulled over a criminal or not, so to be on the safe side you ask everyone if they have any weapons in the vehicle. If they weapon is locked in the truck or out of reach then just leave it be. If the weapon is within reach then we were taught to secure the weapon until after the stop is completed. Of course it was at the discretion of the police officer to follow this.

When I went through Ohio's CCW course, we were taught that when you were pulled to identify yourself as a permit holder and inform the police officer if you were carrying or not before the police officer got to your window. The police officers I knew would not secure the weapon if the person did this, and just ask to see the permit.

Some of you might have different experiences with police officers, I'm sure that each geographic location would be different from each other.

How many cop shootings did the policy prevent?
Did any would-be cop-shooters or criminals just offer up their guns?
How many criminals had concealed carry permits? Are you starting to see where the logic fails?

It's not for officer protection, it's for officer comfort and does nothing to protect the officer. It's 100% security theater (for the cop).
It's also unconstitutional and dangerous.

[ick]

To the writer of the article....

[doubloon]

Step 1 ... no problem, this is my normal procedure

Step 2 ... no problem, also my normal procedure

Step 3 ... half a problem, I don't interrupt but I simply hand the officer both the driver and CHL license and let him ask about the gun if he wants but I have never offered possesion of my gun to anyone, not even an officer

Step 4 ... step 4 doesn't exist

[ERMaag]

I can't read the article on my computer, but i'll comment on informing a police officer if you are carrying or not.

When I went through academy a few years ago, we were taught that it wasn't to check to see if the weapon was stolen, it was for officer protection. A police officer doesn't know if he just pulled over a criminal or not, so to be on the safe side you ask everyone if they have any weapons in the vehicle. If they weapon is locked in the truck or out of reach then just leave it be. If the weapon is within reach then we were taught to secure the weapon until after the stop is completed. Of course it was at the discretion of the police officer to follow this.

When I went through Ohio's CCW course, we were taught that when you were pulled to identify yourself as a permit holder and inform the police officer if you were carrying or not before the police officer got to your window. The police officers I knew would not secure the weapon if the person did this, and just ask to see the permit.

Some of you might have different experiences with police officers, I'm sure that each geographic location would be different from each other.

How many cop shootings did the policy prevent?
Did any would-be cop-shooters or criminals just offer up their guns?
How many criminals had concealed carry permits? Are you starting to see where the logic fails?

It's not for officer protection, it's for officer comfort and does nothing to protect the officer. It's 100% security theater (for the cop).
It's also unconstitutional and dangerous.

Should be a interesting study and read. Mind sharing the source?

In somes states it is a law that you both display your permit while carrying and the law enforcement officer may disarm you until after the stop is completed. In other states that don't have that law, by all means don't tell the officer anything you don't want to...just don't say something stupid like "I have no weapons in my vehicle" while you do have a weapon. Simply say that you refuse to answer without advice from a attorney and then promptly deny a voluntary search.

But, when did the police become the enemy here? People saying that some cops are bad, therefore I don't trust any cop is similar to that cop going well a civilian shot and killed a cop last week, therefore all civilians are bad. If you haven't broke any law, then why not comply and make the situation smoother and easier?

I honestly don't get all the hostility against LEO's...

(once again, did not read the article...just commenting on informing a police officer if you are carrying or not.)

[poikilotrm]

Some of you might have different experiences with police officers,

Yeah.

I'm sure that each geographic location would be different from each other.

Not in my experience.

Given that a cop is far more likely to be a violent felon than the average person according to DOJ stats, how is my surrendering my weapon making me safer? Oh, right, it isn't. It is making the potential felon safer though, which is a policy to which I strenuously object.

The author wants me to roll down both my front windows. I want him to go F--k himself with a sharp stick. My window goes down about an inch and no more, my DL and insurance card fits well through that gap.

A cop is a stranger who is armed and backed by unlimited funds and a vicious nationwide street gang. A cop can quite literally get away with murder. I am not giving a cop my only defense against him and his buddies.

I wish that was paranoia talking, but it isn't. Cops aren't the good guys, and they can't be trusted. Cops can, have and will ruin or end people's lives in a trice and for no reason whatsoever other than a pure power trip. I would sooner give my weapon to a tweaker having a psychotic break than a cop because it would be a safer, saner act.

[poikilotrm]

But, when did the police become the enemy here?

When the cops began preaching it at every level and acting like a goon squad.

People saying that some cops are bad, therefore I don't trust any cop is similar to that cop going well a civilian shot and killed a cop last week, therefore all civilians are bad.

And that would be exactly the way cops speak and behave.

If you haven't broke any law, then why not comply and make the situation smoother and easier?

I hear ya bro. Ya know, if you haven't done anything illegal, you won't mind if I search your house and car without a warrant, right? Please post your info so I can come over and have a look around.

News flash for ya Hans Yost, a REAL American says NO! to goon squads.

I honestly don't get all the hostility against LEO's...

Really? Would you like a few thousand illustrative examples as to why?

[Libertarian_Geek]

But, when did the police become the enemy here? People saying that some cops are bad, therefore I don't trust any cop is similar to that cop going well a civilian shot and killed a cop last week, therefore all civilians are bad. If you haven't broke any law, then why not comply and make the situation smoother and easier?

I honestly don't get all the hostility against LEO's...

(once again, did not read the article...just commenting on informing a police officer if you are carrying or not.)

The cop that wrote the article comes off as a prick. Read the article and maybe you'll spot it.

If you look at any of my posts, you'll see that I'm not hostile against LEOs in general. (unlike puke-o-trim who I've added to my ignore list because of his anti-LEO bigotry) My "hostility" is towards any individual who abuses their position/job/role. The attitude of the article's writer is what I fault, not the job.

http://mikesbales.hubpages.com/hub/Conc ... rospective

[poikilotrm]

(unlike puke-o-trim who I've added to my ignore list because of his anti-LEO bigotry)

The truth's a bitch, ain't it?

[continuity]

Am unable to read the article, but from reading the posts here a couple comments;
In Ohio, and other states, a CCW permit holder who is armed, is required by law to inform the athority stopping them, of that fact. The return from LEADS (the existance of which has been "outted" by poik elsewhere) relative the subject vehicles plate, and the individuals DL, will also return that info. I don't know why. Doesn't make sense to me, but it is what it is. (The LEADS return will NOT however, provide type, caliber, or number of firearms owned by the CCW holder, only that they hold a CCW.) For a CCW permit holder to be required to show, let alone relinquish their weapon, simply based on the fact that an authority stoppping that person for a simple traffic stop is aware they hold a CCW and possess a firearm, has no legal basis. As a matter of fact, in Ohio it would be an illegal seizure, if the firearm is not voluntarily surrendered, sans any PC/RS that the possessor or the firearm is associated with criminal activity. (Please don't read anything I just said as reason to resist legal authorithy(s) direction)

To secure and run a firearm through NCIS (national database that includes stolen/crime related artifacts) purely relative the fact of possession, without any PC/RS of criminal association or investigation of criminal activity, is akin to cops being required, or permitted, to run a vehicles VIN for every traffic stop they make.

... If the weapon is within reach then we were taught to secure the weapon until after the stop is completed. Of course it was at the discretion of the police officer to follow this..

In Ohio, the CCW law has undergone changes (thankfully) from the original presentation. However, if a weapon is displyed, presented or secured inappropriately, there is PC/RS that is is ancillary to a criminal act, and can be secured by the stopping authority for investigatory purposes.

... The police officers I knew would not secure the weapon if the person did this, and just ask to see the permit...

I would say in the rural areas, there is much more common sense displayed (both by LEO's and the general populace) than what you might find in the more urban locals.

...Given that a cop is far more likely to be a violent felon than the average person according to DOJ stats, ...

Felons are by law, in the US, prohibited persons... and may not possses nor carry a firearm, which prevents them from becoming/being a peace officer. Your statement, on the face of it, is erroneous.

Cops aren't the good guys, and they can't be trusted...

Once again... and from the usual source... the now standard, emo-hoe BS.

[doubloon]

...

Cops aren't the good guys, and they can't be trusted...

Once again... and from the usual source... the now standard, emo-hoe BS.

+1

Very little credibility left, if any, now approaching Lenny status.

[bakerjw]

I'm not sure about that. I never put Lenny on ignore. And Lenny even threatened me on a couple of occasions.

[MV10]

Florida doesn't require disclosure, and requires concealment in a vehicle, and I know quite a few cops who are very strong supporters of concealed carry. I've lived most of my life in FL (nearly 30 years here, on and off) and have never once been asked if I was carrying. And my driving record will demonstrate that I get stopped on a somewhat regular basis.

[poikilotrm]

Felons are by law, in the US, prohibited persons... and may not possses nor carry a firearm, which prevents them from becoming/being a peace officer. Your statement, on the face of it, is erroneous.

I didn't say convicted felons, I said felons, as in people who commit felonies. The truth is simply not in you, is it?

Once again... and from the usual source... the now standard, emo-hoe BS.

How is it emotional BS? I can provide source after source to support my contention, can you?

[L1A1Rocker]

Hummmm. . .

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Maybe he didn't get the reaction he thought he would?

In any case, the ASSumption that a gun is stolen is a clear violation of the presumption of innocence.

[Libertarian_Geek]

http://mikesbales.hubpages.com/

Yep. Looks like he removed it.

But there's always Google Cache:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... =firefox-a

[ick]

The whole article for everyone's convenience.

Concealed Carry- A Police Officers Prospective

This ought to be good....

I have been a Deputy with one of the largest counties in Missouri for some years now. Being in an area so riddled with methamphetamine one can naturally expect a lot of traffic stops during each shift. With a population of over 60,000 people I see a lot of diversity in my traffic stops, not necessarily in race, but in backgrounds. I see the rich, the poor, and everyone in between. One question that I have been asked countless times from all walks of life is “What do I do if I get pulled over and have my weapon in the car?” This question is usually followed up by something to the effect of “My CCW Instructor never fully answered that question.” So in the paragraphs below I will answer that question in the most complete way possible. Please understand that police work is not a science, but an art. Nowhere is this more true than during a traffic stop. I know officers who only pull over vehicles that they believe contain drugs, and I know of officers who pull over every car they see going six miles over the speed limit. This article is to be used as a guide to properly dealing with the police in the off chance that you are stopped while carrying your weapon.

Sounds qualified.

Step 1: Pull Over

For most people this can go without saying, but I cannot count the times that vehicles will drive five or more miles before stopping. Not necessarily because they are running, or trying to get rid of evidence, but because they are either afraid or think that the officer will just get bored and go away. It doesn't matter if you think your innocent, or that he’s got the wrong person, pull over. Once you see the red and blue lights in your rear view mirror find the closest area (preferably on the right side of the road) and pull over. Because the police officer will be getting out of his or her vehicle and approaching yours with traffic buzzing by, get as far right as you safely can. This will allow the officer to position his vehicle in a way which will provide protection to him in the off chance that a vehicle does not see the bright red and blue lights flashing in front of them.

Obey and pull over, got it.

Step 2: Roll Down BOTH of your front windows and place your hands on the steering wheel.

Most people don’t understand why someone would want both of their windows to be rolled down, and without conducting hundreds of traffic stops it may be difficult to comprehend. Mostly seen in high traffic areas (i.e. highways, narrow roads, exit ramps etc.) an officer may feel safer and more protected from passing traffic making the approach from the passengers side. And with both of your hands on the steering wheel it is obvious to even the most rookie of police officers that you are not reaching for anything and that you most likely aren't going to cause problems.

Hmmm. Hadn't heard of the two window thing. I will have to do that next time.

Step 3: Do Not Interrupt! But Mention that you have a firearm in the car.

When I approach a vehicle I start every interaction the same: “Hello, I’m Deputy Bales from the Sheriff’s Office, I stopped you today because <insert reason here>. Could I please see your driver’s license and insurance card?” Almost every officer has a canned phrase to give drivers that he stops. Let him finish before announcing “I have a gun!” After he finishes calmly state “Officer, just so you know I have a Concealed Carry Endorsement and my weapon is <insert location here> would you like for me to hand it to you?” Do not assume that the officer wants you to hand it to him, while 99.99% of police officers will ask that you do indeed hand it to them, there are a few that will ask you to exit the vehicle and they will remove it themselves. Under no circumstances will I return to my vehicle with a loaded weapon still in yours, so don’t get the idea that it is violating your rights for me to hold onto your gun for a few minutes. Most importantly, if you take nothing else from this article please remember that the absolute WORST thing you can do is immediately reach for it without him asking you to. This will result in a very uncomfortable situation for both of you. “Why can’t I keep my gun with me since I've got a CCW and it’s a legal firearm?” Simply put, just because you may know it is legal doesn't mean that I do. And every officer has seen enough horror films in the police academy to last a lifetime and leave the impression that every gun can kill you. Once I have your weapon with me, along with your driver’s license and insurance I then return to my vehicle and provide dispatch with the serial number of the weapon as well as your license information. Now that I know it is a legal firearm we are on to the next step.

Do not interrupt? Here is where the article begins to turn in my opinion. Almost right out of the box I get the feeling that "shut up and listen to me" is the first message. If it is really so awful and dangerous and gives cops the willy-nillies when they find out you have a CCW... shouldn't you get that out there ASAP?

Step 4: Getting Your Gun Back

Some officers will approach your vehicle and simply hand you the gun. This practice is largely out dated and most officers are going to the system I was taught. While I am in my vehicle –and after I have been told the gun isn't stolen- I remove the magazine and unload the weapon. I will then take all of the bullets out of the magazine. I will re-approach your car, explain that you are/aren't getting a citation, I am handing you a bunch of bullets to be put straight in the cup holder, and that I am going to place your firearm in the back seat and the magazine a few feet away from it. I then explain that under no circumstances are you to mess with that weapon until I am out of sight. I then return to my vehicle and leave.

"getting your gun back"? That one quote disturbs me the most about this article. It reeks of "you have no rights, but I am going to LET YOU have your gun back. You should be appreciative that I LET YOU have your gun back. YOu don't have a right to it in the first place."

And Now for the What If’s:

“What if the officer doesn't ask about a weapon in the car, my state doesn't require that I tell him?”

I live in Missouri, and here –like in most states- you do NOT have to tell the officer that you have a weapon in the car unless he asks. That being said if I find out you have a CCW from dispatch or some other way I will not be very happy when I do ask you and find out that you are carrying a weapon. It is ALWAYS best to be straight forward about having a weapon.

So if you stop me and I have illegal drugs in the car I have a right not to say anything and you need probable cause before you search.... but if I am a law abiding citizen I should have to take my clothes off and bend over? This thinking is backwards.

“Why are so many cops against CCW?”

This is the biggest misconception in the firearm world. I have never in my life met a group of people that were such big proponents of concealed carry and the personal ownership of firearms. For example: The Sheriff of my county had the authority to charge up to $100.00 for the fingerprinting and filing of a CCW. He believed so strongly that citizens had the right to protect themselves that he charged $13.81, the exact amount that it cost him to pay a deputy to take fingerprints and run a background check plus the cost of the fingerprint card. Police Officers are your friends, and as a whole, they believe strongly in your right to carry concealed. With that being said, all of us come across those few rotten apples who aren't very friendly about their guns and ruin the experience for the rest of the world. Just be honest and straight forward about the gun that is in your car and you will be just fine.

Interesting.

“What if I have a CCW Endorsement and do not have the gun with me?”

Not a problem. Follow the first and second steps exactly the same as if you were carrying. At the same point that you would tell him that you have a firearm in the car explain that you do not have one with you, even though you have the endorsement.

Why even put this in the article?

Conclusion:

While you will still find a few officers who feel it is necessary to either go beyond what they should do, or just not worry about the gun at all, honesty is always the best solution. Just be straight forward about the gun, or lack thereof, and you will be on your way in just a few short minutes.

I can't disagree about honesty. Our society is built on honesty. Millions of dollars and packs of bubble gum change hands based on this foundation...

[L1A1Rocker]

http://mikesbales.hubpages.com/

Yep. Looks like he removed it.

But there's always Google Cache:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... =firefox-a

Thanks for the cache. Reading the comments I see why officer "happy" took down the post.

[Libertarian_Geek]

Great breakdown ick.