.40 S&W vs .357 sig

.357sigger · Post by **.357sigger** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:57 pm

Which do you think is better and why. I know a lot of LEO carry the 40 S&W but also a few are switching over to .357 sig

.357sigger · Post by **.357sigger** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:55 pm

Let me know what your feelings are.........I am trying to decide on which one to use as my ccw load. What are the advantages of one over the other?

.357sigger · Post by **.357sigger** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:49 am

no one has anything to say?

JohnnyC · Post by **JohnnyC** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:08 am

Well, I bought an XD in .357 Sig, and shortly thereafter I replaced the .357 barrel with an aftermarket .40. My reasoning was two-fold. Primarily, I didn't like the increased recoil. Normally it wouldn't be an issue, but I figured in a self defense situation, I'd much rather spend less time recovering from the first shot, even if it does give up something in terminal energy. Downloading a .357 to a level with more manageable recoil would simply negate the purpose of purchasing a .357 Sig to begin with. At that point, you might as well just have a 9mm, as effective and cheaper to shoot.

Which brings me to my second point, the .357 being fairly expensive compared to .40. I can go out and get twice the ammo in .40 than in .357. I can certainly afford to purchase the .357, but for the money it would take to purchase enough ammo to become as proficient in .357 as I am in .40, I'd rather save the cash and spend it on something else. Even reloading the .357 is more expensive.

All of the choices you've mentioned are adequate, but I don't see the reasoning for .357 when you can be just as effective with less work and less dough, and become proficient, and remain proficient in a shorter amount of time.

Conqueror · Post by **Conqueror** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:37 am

Most of the ballistics research I've ever read agrees that the "best" bullet is the one that creates the largest permanent wound cavity. In general, that means that biggest diameter is better as long as the larger round can still penetrate 12". So my recommendation to people has always been to carry the largest caliber they can COMFORTABLY and CONTROLLABLY shoot. If you can comfortably shoot a .50AE, then that's gonna serve you better (for social purposes) than a .45 or a .40. Similarly, if you can comfortably shoot both .357SIG and .40, the .40 is a better choice since it will punch a bigger hole in bad guys - and both rounds have plenty of penetration.

That's just considering the rounds themselves - obviously there are other considerations (ie, you can't effectively CCW a .50AE desert eagle, even if you can shoot it comfortably).

JPratt06 · Post by **JPratt06** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:45 am

Conqueror wrote:Most of the ballistics research I've ever read agrees that the "best" bullet is the one that creates the largest permanent wound cavity. In general, that means that biggest diameter is better as long as the larger round can still penetrate 12".

Not always. Speed is a big factor, as well as bullet fragility. A 5.56 M193 running at over 3200 fps has a diameter of only .224, but the permanent and especially temporary wound cavities are enormous. At some point, velocity becomes a bigger factor than diameter/size. This is particularly noticeable in rifle cartridges, but I'm sure it applies to handgun loads to some extent.

tikkafan · Post by **tikkafan** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:34 pm

From all of the shooting fatality statistics I've seen it really doesn't matter what semi-auto cartridge you use. Everything between 9mm and .45ACP is within a couple percentage points. As long as it is a good bullet design and it feeds reliably there ain't much of a difference.

People get too wrapped up in perceptions of performance.

Rifles on the other hand are a different story. Velocity envelopes and bullet design are much more important.

Conqueror · Post by **Conqueror** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:12 pm

JPratt06 wrote:Not always. Speed is a big factor, as well as bullet fragility. A 5.56 M193 running at over 3200 fps has a diameter of only .224, but the permanent and especially temporary wound cavities are enourmous. At some point, velocity becomes a bigger factor than diameter/size. This is particularly noticeable in rifle cartridges, but I'm sure it applies to handgun loads to some extent.

My rule applies to rifles too. I would argue that the .223's tissue damage is NOT due in large part to its speed, but rather its yaw. When it turns sideways in your chest it becomes a larger projectile from a corss-sectional area standpoint, and so naturally it will cut a larger permanent wound channel. Heavier rifle rounds like 7.62x39 are often noted for simply punching holes straight through the target - in other words, their velocity is largely meaningless since they don't destroy much tissue. Tissue is quite elastic, and Fackler et. al. show frequently that temporary cavitation is meaningless. So if a .45 puches a .45 hole straight through you, and a .308 punches a .308 hole through you, then the .45 actually stands a greater chance of hitting a vital structure and incapacitating the target. Only with fragmentation or yaw can the rifle bullet do more damage, but that's a question of individual bullet design rather than caliber efficacy.

JPratt06 · Post by **JPratt06** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:19 pm

Conqueror wrote:
JPratt06 wrote:Not always. Speed is a big factor, as well as bullet fragility. A 5.56 M193 running at over 3200 fps has a diameter of only .224, but the permanent and especially temporary wound cavities are enourmous. At some point, velocity becomes a bigger factor than diameter/size. This is particularly noticeable in rifle cartridges, but I'm sure it applies to handgun loads to some extent.
My rule applies to rifles too. I would argue that the .223's tissue damage is NOT due in large part to its speed, but rather its yaw. When it turns sideways in your chest it becomes a larger projectile from a corss-sectional area standpoint, and so naturally it will cut a larger permanent wound channel.

In 5.56, yaw is not the proximate cause of the large wound cavity (either temporary or permanent)---fragmentation is. Fragmentation/bullet deformation is caused by multiple factors: velocity, bullet fragility (eg. cannelure), and bullet instability in tissue (eg. "yaw"). If a bullet yaws but does not fragment or deform, the wound cavity is still relatively small, and typically will be only as large as the bullet's length. When the bullet fragments, the wound cavity is MUCH larger than either the bullet diameter or the bullet length.

Typically in loads such as M193 and M855, bullet yaw initiates fragmentation. The bullet is too weak to maintain its structural integrity once the entire side of the bullet is facing in the direction of travel.

Conqueror · Post by **Conqueror** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:22 pm

I addressed that later in my post. It still boils down to the clear fact that the .223's performance is NOT just a function of its velocity. You cannot say "velocity is important in wounding too, look at the .223!" because there are plenty of other 2800fps rifle rounds that do NOT fragment and therefore do NOT perform like the .223. For those rounds, simple bullet diamater determines wounding, which is what I suggested in my first post - if you can shoot it comfortably, go with the larger bullet every time.

JPratt06 · Post by **JPratt06** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:24 pm

Going back to the .357 Sig vs. .40 S&W debate, I believe the question we should be asking is whether or not the velocity boost of the .357 will lead to an increase in fragmentation/deformation.

.357sigger · Post by **.357sigger** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:37 pm

Thats my main question as well. I have had some tell me that a slower moving larger bullet will do more damage than a faster moving smaller one. As well as others say that velocity and muzzle energy are more important.
Ex. a .40 s&w 165 gr 1150-1250fps vs a .357 sig 125gr 1375-1450fps

Conqueror · Post by **Conqueror** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:21 pm

For your answer you should look to the .357SIG's namesake, the .357 Magnum. The SIG round was developed to mimic the magnum's performance from a 4" barrel, but falls slightly short. For instance, a 4" .357 Magnum revolver will launch a 125gr projo around 1450fps, with the SIG coming in around 1350. The SIG falls even shorter with heavier bullets.

So the .357SIG is essentially like a slightly down-loaded .357 Magnum out of a short revolver. Powerful, yes, but it's nothing mythical. For your purposes you can read up on all the real-world cases of shootings with the .357 Magnum and consider them roughly appropriate for the .357SIG. Considering the data I've read on .40S&W that assigns it a one-shot stop ratio in the 85-95% range, I'm not sure the SIG can realize a huge improvement over that.

Poacher · Post by **Poacher** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:10 pm

My two cents worth.

High velocity rounds cause more tissue damage, the stretch cavity??, which causes more bleeding and can affect and area larger than there size. Slower moving projectiles, pistol calibers, basically have to touch what they damage. that being said....

the factors that really relate to how affective a projectile is are:

1) shot placement

2) how motivated or determined is the target

If the target is fantical and believes death is a promotion to be with allah and the more infidels he takes with him the higher he goes. Then he is gonna be hard to kill. You will have to hit him in the brain or a related neurological area to get an instant incapacitation or hit a joint like the knee or hip that prevents him from walking where he can still be a threat. Otherwise your hit will cause him to bleed until he bleeds out and dies.

Then if he isnt so commited he may go into shock and die from a wound that isnt physically fatal. Im sure you could go on and on with scenarios but those seem to be the two factors IMHO.

I recall a story of a police officer shooting a guy that was high and motivated, he had killed before, and they guy struggled after the shot and told the cop to "quit fucking shooting me." The police officer was shooting a .45 and the exam revealed the slug went through the heart. It should have been instantly fatal and basically was but the guys mindset allowed him to struggle and say his last words.

Slick · Post by **Slick** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:05 pm

All the gel shots I've seen show little difference bewteen 357 sig and 40.

I think bullet design is more important than caliber, at least in pistols.

.357sigger · Post by **.357sigger** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:11 pm

Does anyone have a link or some photos of ballistics tests?

.357sigger · Post by **.357sigger** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:50 pm

What do you think the minimum velocity should be.....1100 fps for a good .40 round? Anybody know what winchester ranger is at?

lawless · Post by **lawless** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:59 pm

I didnt vote because of a couple things. At work we have an NIJ ballistic chart that is for nine and 40. When fired with hollow points. the only thing that gave the 40 an edge was bullet weight. The second is the standards set forth by the fbi after their shootout in miami. They dictated that all bullets from any hangun must penetrate no less than 12 inches, and they must expand to 64 caliber upon impact. So whether it is a 45 or a 9 its still going to be around 64 caliber. I look at it as I can shoot a nine very fast and very accurately so why not chose that. However on a battlefield the pistol of choice would definetly be a .45. Solely for the reason of the bigger hole because fmj's don't expand. Since that is all the military uses it would be wiser to choose that. But in the private sector it doesnt really matter much. Ive shot a 9 and seen a hadj take more than one in the breadbasket and still get up to return fire. But when hit with a controlled pair from an m4, they usually stay down for long enough to shoot them again. A .223 will always be more effective than a 9 thats why no swat team uses the colt smg anymore. The pistol debate in my opinion is beat to death and for all practical purposes its what you can shoot effectively and comfortably. Id rather have 15 potential holes in a bad guy than 8.

Poacher · Post by **Poacher** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:22 pm

Yep, I agree with lawless, follow up shots are very important because anything worth shooting, is worth shooting twice, three or however many times until you are happy, especially if they shot at you or your bro's.

People want cars to explode when shot with a .40 and bodies to drop cold and dead even if they just graze them.

The PD in my home town changed to Glock .45's because an officer shot at a car with their Glock 23 (.40) and it hit the edge of the front windshield and embedded in the seam. It was a glancing shot that went in at a steep angle. I asked the dumbass asst chief what he wanted it to do, he didnt really know what he expected the bullet to do. So now several of the guys are not comfortable with their issue weapon because of the grip size.

.357sigger · Post by **.357sigger** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:48 pm

Thats a great solution to a problem..................

Stephen Gray · Post by **Stephen Gray** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:35 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with modern hollowpoint ammunition, aren't 9mm, 9mm +p, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP pretty close in the amount of expansion? And, don't they all do pretty well with regard to penetration in gelatin?

I've read that the .357 SIG has a nice, flat trajectory which lends itself to a higher degree of accuracy, and that it had better results when shot through barriers than slower bullets, like the .45 ACP. That said, this could be a minus just as easily a plus, depending on your needs. The accuracy thing seems kind of theoretical to me, since most users will inherently be less accurate than the bullet anyway.

Conqueror · Post by **Conqueror** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:53 am

I also question the importance of a "flat trajectory" in a combat pistol. Probably 99% of the time it will be used on a target less than 25 yards away... even with a .45, is bullet drop really a concern?

.357sigger · Post by **.357sigger** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:33 pm

coming back up............

pdemos · Post by **pdemos** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:21 pm

My $ 0.02 worth, as for CCW I like a light wait .38 S&W revolver but that's just what I prefer.

But now as for 9mm, .40S&W or .45ACP, I stick to the old adage that the 9mm and 40S&W will stop the bad guy, but the .45ACP will stop the bad guy and his truck.

.357sigger · Post by **.357sigger** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:03 am

anyone got an answer to that velocity question???

.40 S&W vs .357 sig

Which would you carry?

.40 S&W vs .357 sig