Concealed Carry. Why bother?

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KiA
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by KiA »

a_canadian wrote:From what I've just read about handgun permits in New York City
it happened in washington, d.c.
a_canadian wrote:In that case, attempting to put myself in the victim's place, I expect I'd have let him have the phone for a moment, then as he made his getaway I'd have damaged him and taken my phone back, having waited for a suitable moment of opportunity.
legally when the thief disengages and makes his getaway, he has ended the theft or robbery incident. you'll be initiating another incident, which would be assault. you may get slapped with charges as well and your sentencing may even be more severe. or, the thief could turn around and sue you for damages and win as happened in this case in china.

you've made (or inferred) some statements that i disagree with:
  • thief is a thief. murderer is a murderer
  • a thief can be easily distinguished from a murderer
  • a thief can be trusted
  • it's ok to be bullied by a thief and give up material possessions
  • you're declaring a value for other people's possessions
  • a life of a criminal is worth more than any material possession
  • future incidents will go down perfectly as you've scripted
  • if past incidents did not happen as you said, it's because people did not follow your script and it's their fault
  • force is ok; weapons are ok; as long as it's not a gun (even though a gun is just a force multiplying weapon)
i already pointed out an example where a thief became a murderer. here's an excerpt from another incident:
Tom Givens wrote:from this page:
In the last incident, the victim had handed over his wallet and cell phone and was standing there with his hands in the air when he was shot in the face and killed.
john lott has statistically studied that it's more likely to survive an incident unharmed if there is resistance, and even more if the resistance is with a gun. it's buried somewhere in his book "more guns, less crime". i don't remember the specifics, and i'm not going to waste my time looking into it because it seems like you've already closed up your mind.

i was going to counter-argue the above list point by point, but now i will just leave it as a disagreement because this is going nowhere really slow. :)
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by TROOPER »

I appreciate studies -- I really do, and I'm not just saying that to be generous. However, we act on assumptions every single day, and the underlying theme of the Castle Doctrine has nothing to do with "the-principle-of-the-thing".... although the law is often sold to the voting public using that approach.

No, in reality it's law-makers coming around to understand that the assumptions being made by a homeowner confronting someone who has broken into your house is built on a bed of assumptions which are logical to make. An armed bank guard ALSO makes assumptions if he sees someone with a hand in a jacket pocket pointing at a cashier and demanding money:
-- that the thing in the pocket doing pointing is a gun
-- that the GUN is real, and not a replica
-- that the REAL GUN is loaded
-- that the REAL, LOADED GUN is held by someone who can effectively operate it
-- that the REAL, LOADED GUN held by the COMPETENT gunman
-- that the REAL, LOADED GUN is being held by a COMPETENT gunman with the intent to use it
-- that the REAL, LOADED GUN is being held by a COMPETENT gunman with the INTENT to use it to shoot someone
-- that the REAL, LOADED GUN is being held by a COMPETENT gunman with the INTENT to use it to SHOOT someone FATALLY.

Can you imagine how utterly ineffective a bank guard would be if he had to confirm every single one of those points before acting? "Sir, I'll need to see the weapon in your hand, please, we don't honor 'pocket guns'. Excellent. Now is that a Smith-&-Wesson or a Mattel? Oh, M&P... good gun. Now then if you could show me the chamber indicator... ? Great. Could you drop the mag? That's 2, 4, 6, 8, .... yep, it's full. Very good. Now I'll need you to rack-the-slide... undo the safety.... fantastic. You are familiar with this firearm. Now on a scale of 1-to-10... with 10 being "without-a-doubt", how likely are you to actually discharge this firearm on this visit? Do you have any scoring targets with you so that we can check your ability to accurately fire this weapon? You do? Good. And now where will you be aiming, sir? Are you a "below-the-waist" kind of guy... or are you a center-of-mass type of shooter?"

I'm sorry that my response is tediously worded, but it was done specifically this way in order to illustrate the chain-of-assumptions that are being made, and how if the bank security guard shoots and kills the man who may have had only his finger in his hoodie pocket and was screaming demands... it's justified. Not a court in the US is going to say otherwise.

... and that's to protect "just money", and not even "just money", but money which is completely insured, and for which no single bank customer will be specifically harmed.... meaning that no one has a depleted account as a result of this robbery.

Can you imagine a home-owner having to work his way through that list before defending himself in his own home in order to stave off an over-zealous DA?

So why is the above example socially acceptable? The would-be bank thief should actively expect to be killed... and it's for theft of a thing which is considerably more 'victimless' than virtually any other kind of theft. And ironically, it's built on an incredible string of assumptions... seven, to be exact.

As far as Poik's scenario where a person is legally prohibited from being armed and are therefore significantly hampered in their ability to defend themselves... well, a person in that position, no matter what the law says, does have a choice. The law only spells out the consequences of those choices, but it doesn't remove the choices. If a person is killed because they refuse to defend themselves in order to stay on the right side of the law, then I applaud their commitment to living a lifestyle utterly free of criminal choices. If they choose to break the law and defend themselves from what-could-have-been, then I applaud their decision to embrace a choice which is the lesser of two unpleasant outcomes. There will be consequences for that decision, but there were consequences for the other decision as well. It isn't like bad things only happen to bad people.

'Legal innocence" isn't bulletproof. That status helps you in COURT... it will PROBABLY help you with LEO interactions... but it doesn't do squat to a criminal... and arguably, it actually harms you in interactions with a predator.

Illegally carrying is a compromise, just like every other decision. If a decision wasn't a compromise, it wouldn't be a decision -- it would just be a course-of-action.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by ick »

a_canadian wrote:I don't have my phone out while I'm on a commuter train or bus unless and until I have assessed the other riders, and even then only briefly should the need to answer a call or check for an anticipated message arise. Otherwise it stays hidden, period. I am only too aware of the rising tide of smartphone thefts in San Francisco, and the mirroring of those grab-and-run thefts on the rise in a number of other cities including my own. I don't display valuables of any sort while on public transit nor in any area where I am unsure of my surroundings, where a thief might have a momentary advantage.
This made me a little bit sad, for it seems you are not a free man. I understand you have your wife take off her $10,000 diamond ring and hide it when forced to walk through a rough neighborhood... lest someone sees it and makes life complicated.

It is a whole other form of tyranny when you feel can't even look at your phone at your leisure for fear of someone grabbing it. It sounds as if you have surrendered a little bit too much of your liberty out of a real fear of criminals. I choose to use my liberty and intend to have myself prepared to defend myself.

Who knows, if i am in the situation you describe and someone grabs my phone I may be so scared I will pee my pants and start crying.

At least I will have the option to defend myself.
Last edited by ick on Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by silencertalk »

My kids going to be in Rome in a few days, and I said they should not walk around with their phones, as not only may the phone be stolen, but I don't want their heads buried in them and not being aware of their surroundings.

But no, in the US, I would never avoid using my iPhone 6 for fear of it being grabbed in San Francisco or anywhere else. We don't have the same kind of pick-pocket problem as in Rome or Naples. My wife's father was pick-pocketed $980 in Rome yesterday (had the cash in a fanny pack). That could never happen to me for a few reasons. One being that I never carry cash. I probably go months at home without using any cash at all.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by YugoRPK »

I certainly wouldn't carry that much cash in Rome but Italy doesn't have the same usage rate of plastic as we do here or in northern Europe. Go without cash in Rome and you'll be hungry and thirsty pretty quick. 100 euros in a shoe.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by silencertalk »

I think he was carrying that much cash for the same reason my wife is carrying all of our passports - they both believe that it is more likely for them to be stolen from our room than from their person.

Yes, credit card use here is very spotty. Even for example Burger King, which accepted credit cards, would not accept my Visa or Amex because I did not have a secret code. I have never heard of a secret code on a credit card. My Amex even has a chip that worked in London at McDonalds.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by YugoRPK »

Wer'e going on Vacation early next month. Pretty good year this year and my son was trying to talk me into going to Rome but having been in Rome in August I declined and the wife wanted nothing to do with it. Ive gotten to the point where I consider going to Europe more work than relaxation. Cancun it is.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by silencertalk »

I just watched a few documentaries on pick pocketing. The conclusion was that if you take your wallet and turn it sideways with the open end down, then you will never be targeted as it cannot be removed without being detected, and they don't make attempts that they think will be detected. Front pocket is even better, though they do take wallets from front pockets if they are aligned vertically. If you have a bag over your shoulder, the bag should in front of your arm, not behind. And Naples is the worst place for it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -here.html

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/05 ... ng-busted/
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by a_canadian »

You can suggest that I've sacrified liberty by choosing not to expose my valuables to thieves. Or one could also call it sensible behaviour based on observation of real circumstances. I read an article this spring in which a number was tossed out... 3,000 smartphones grabbed from pedestrians and sidewalk cafe customers in the first 3 months of 2015 if memory serves, within the city of San Francisco. While that's a small percentage of the population, it seems the odds are somewhat better than winning a significant amount (say, the value of a smartphone) with a scratch-and-win ticket. The article was written by journalist in my city, with comparisons drawn and police statements suggesting that while not quite so bad here, they've definitely seen a doubling or perhaps tripling of the grab-and-run type phone thefts in the past couple of years here. I have a nice phone (ie; not an apple product, no thanks, seen enough of my clients suffering data loss and broken screens with those things) and chose not to have it grabbed out of my hands. That's a small sacrifice, but comparing it to the bigger sacrifice of handing over my data including my roughly 1,200 person contacts list and all my business information, it's relatively insignificant. Like I said, if I have to use the thing in tricky public spaces (buses and light rail are the most likely places for such thefts, where crowds make pursuit or even adequate appraisal of large volumes of individuals difficult) I make a point of checking out my surrounding passengers carefully first. Awareness is key. If this kid in Washington DC had been more careful in how he stored his phone (pockets are awesome!) and had been watching his surroundings just a bit, perhaps he'd be alive today.

Sorry I messed up on the city by the way. All your big cities kind of blend together for me and I don't really travel to the US, only once in the past 20 years for a convention. But DC has a strict no-handguns law, doesn't it? So it'd be an even bigger illegal move for the victim in this case had he elected to carry a handgun, whether openly or concealed, with open carry obviously not an option unless he wished to be arrested or shot. Have a look at some relative numbers on this easy to read page:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-inf ... ates/Crime
Sure we have almost as many guns per capita as you guys, but we don't carry them unless we're cops or gangsters. And the gangsters almost always manage to miss when they have their little wars, and when they do shoot someone it's rarely a bystander, though obviously that's tragic when it does occasionally happen. Canada is dramatically safer in almost every way than the USA, so I get it that you're fearful, as there's real violence to fear. But don't you guys ever get together and discuss how maybe, just maybe, the whole attitude around violence and especially guns might have a little something to do with the fact that your gun violence rate is dramatically higher than any developed country? Comparisons to Honduras or Haiti aren't relevant. Those are wild zones. I know people from countries like that, places they love dearly, but which they had to leave because things just got too crazy.

A Jamaican friend tried really hard to re-settle there a few years back. Lasted two years. Then he came back from shopping for dinner one afternoon and found bits of someone scattered around his front yard, and kids standing around in shock, blood everywhere. Someone explained that a guy had $50 and got himself chopped up by some guys who wanted the $50. He still tried to stay but then a good friend was murdered for slightly more cash than that, a fine old fellow who was a grandfather of the Jamaican jazz scene and never hurt anyone.

If you pursue this path of violence-answering-violence, this seemingly bible-driven notion that and eye for an eye will somehow result in peace, you're heading down the same road. Being among the richer classes does not grant you some sort of right to murder based on property values, it just doesn't, any more than being poor or addicted or both grants some thief the right to murder in order to access cash and property. You aren't 'better' simply because you have a weapon and a bit of training. You can call me or even my country all the silly names you like, but the facts regarding the level of hostility and the tragic outcomes speak for themselves. Canada's crime rates are at their lowest rates ever, in almost every category, though white collar theft is of course thriving. No one punishes the rich when they steal, especially if their victims are the poor.

Thanks for that addition silencertalk; it addresses what I said about the phone tucked in the belt nicely, along with all manner of other sorts of carelessness. People often think they have a right to treat the world like their living room when it just ain't so. Just as some places (admittedly very few these days) don't have a McDonald's, there are a lot of places one can travel, including in my country and obviously in the USA, where flaunting one's wealth openly is simply foolish. Making simple changes in behaviour to discourage easy theft or even the recognition of wealth makes sense. If you don't wag the hotdog in the air, seagulls won't swoop down and grab it.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by YugoRPK »

No ones murdering anyone here. In your silly little ( population wise ) country to the North I am sure that if someone breaks into your home with the intent to steal things you are fine with that. You have a social contract. In our country, where the demographics skew things a bit, if a person forcibly enters a home to steal they do so knowing that they will likely be ventilated. If I happen upon someone stealing from my home I will oblige them and ventilate them. That is our social contract. There is no murder there. I would not go to jail for that nor would I lose a moments sleep. No " Overzealous D.A. " in my county would even dream of prosecuting me for shooting a thief in my own home. Outside of my home I have the right to move about unmolested. If someone decidees that they want to disturb my right to be unmolested either by stealing from me or assaulting me, they know that in this country people often carry firearms and often use them for self protection from molesters. They choose to be ventilated by proceeding with their molestation. There is no problem. We all make choices.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by TROOPER »

"Expectation" pretty much sums it up. It's expected and accepted that bank robbery is going to roll a whole larger tsunami of doo-doo over the would-be thief than a simple murder call to 911. It's weird to put it in that perspective, but do the police send out SWAT to every murder call? I can see this in very small communities, but in the big cities, one will ALWAYS get a larger reaction than the other... and the larger one will always be the bank robbery.

I'm fine with this, merely observing it. But for as many people denounce the "Castle Doctrine" or "Stand-your-ground" states, it seems that essentially no one protests the "rob-a-bank-and-you'll-get-obliterated" doctrine, even though it is philosophically the same exact crime. It seems that the whole thing boils down to expectation.

Which is comical. Because it simply means that there are less bank-robberies since everyone expects a harsh response. They still happen... but considering the prize, you'd think there'd be more. I guess harsher, immediate penalties do work.

Treating criminals with kid-gloves just guarantees more criminal behavior.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by a_canadian »

I suspect the single biggest deterrent to bank robbery is the massive shift in bank policy over the past 20 years. I know a guy who robbed banks in the early 1960's (there's some statute of limitations for you, suck it) in California. He was young, and under the strong influence of a relative and her boyfriend, so he tagged along and made loads of money. Came back to Canada with $7,000 after 2 years robbing banks and never even loading his sawed off shotgun, and lots of partying in between. But these days a guy would have to be very, very lucky indeed to catch a bank with even a few thousand dollars available for grabbing. They don't store anything at the teller's wickets. A robot spits out cash after the teller or manager inputs data. All of it's heavily monitored, steps put in between customers and the money. A robber would have to either be an idiot capable of ignoring all that plus the 17 HD cameras monitoring every angle of the room, or very smart in terms of finding ways to hack the system and get a serious amount of cash and get out in under a minute. A fool's errand either way really. Street crime or B&E are far lower risk.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by ick »

a_canadian wrote:Being among the richer classes does not grant you some sort of right to murder based on property values, it just doesn't, any more than being poor or addicted or both grants some thief the right to murder in order to access cash and property
I am very surprised you conflated these two items in this comparison. Can you see the problem with your chosen example?
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by silencertalk »

I would not shoot someone in defense of property. That is what insurance is for.

Korean store owners in LA seeing their uninsured stores being fire bombed probably had to defend their property more than I do.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by poikilotrm »

silencertalk wrote:I would not shoot someone in defense of property. That is what insurance is for.
Yeah. If you are wealthy enough to absorb the financial loss and the loss of the gear is insignificant in terms of financial impact, then that is what insurance is for, to pay you a fraction of the value of the item stolen. BTW, my insurance refused to cover my loss when the cop's burgled my home to the tune of over $8000 worth of stuff.

Then there is the emotional and mental fallout from being burgled, and if it is a hot burglary, that is upped, and if your family is present, then it gets upped again in terms of long and short term effect.

Sorry, but no. If some scumbag wants to die so badly that he will take what's mine, then he needs to be obliged, for a number of reasons.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by usmcvet0331 »

I don't carry off duty to deter crime. I carry off duty to protect my loved ones and myself. Period. I'm not trying to make a statement. I'm just minding my own damn business. I have carried on duty as a police officer for more than 23 years. All but the first few months were in a holster with weapon retention. People try to take guns from cops. Cops are trained in weapon retention. I've taught the Lindell Method of Weapin retention and been trained in several others. I went and became an instructor, on my own dime, because I knew I didn't have enough training. How much have you had? How much has the open carry advocate had? I know I've not had enough. I also know I don't want to be in the heightened state of vigilance open carry requires while I'm not working.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by a_canadian »

THANK YOU usmcvet0331! While of course you may, or may not, find much of the crap I've been spouting in this thread offensive, and while I find it a mixed bag in terms of some of what's been said by others, it is SO refreshing to read someone stating these problems from the basis of solid experience. As I mentioned earlier, I saw a cop almost lose his pistol to an angry person who had just been attempting to kick an old guy to death. He retained it, but was plainly startled then shaken by the near miss. This is no trivial matter. There are simply too many factors at play, especially in crowds, for anyone to be perfectly in control of their weapon when it is not in their hand. And even when it is in their hand, there remains some chance that it could be knocked free. A weapon presents not only a simple solution to certain kinds of problems, it presents problems of its own, and if we choose to wilfully ignore these and puff out our chests and declare that 'I'm the meanest son-of-a-bitch in the valley and any fucker gonna mess with me is gonna die!' we are setting ourselves up for a fall.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by YugoRPK »

What a police officer goes through in his daily life and what a normal civilian go through are completely different. A cop goes into stop a fight. Anyone with their head screwed on straight goes the other way. If I'm open carrying it doesnt mean I'm trying to engage every situation that occurs. It just means I'm not wearing baggy clothing.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by poikilotrm »

a_canadian wrote:THANK YOU usmcvet0331! While of course you may, or may not, find much of the crap I've been spouting in this thread offensive, and while I find it a mixed bag in terms of some of what's been said by others, it is SO refreshing to read someone stating these problems from the basis of solid experience. As I mentioned earlier, I saw a cop almost lose his pistol to an angry person who had just been attempting to kick an old guy to death. He retained it, but was plainly startled then shaken by the near miss. This is no trivial matter. There are simply too many factors at play, especially in crowds, for anyone to be perfectly in control of their weapon when it is not in their hand. And even when it is in their hand, there remains some chance that it could be knocked free. A weapon presents not only a simple solution to certain kinds of problems, it presents problems of its own, and if we choose to wilfully ignore these and puff out our chests and declare that 'I'm the meanest son-of-a-bitch in the valley and any fucker gonna mess with me is gonna die!' we are setting ourselves up for a fall.
Again, like most liberals, you have a distorted view of the world and a strong inability to understand human behavior.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

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Youre happy to keep it up with the petty jabs, unsubstantiated 'facts' about human nature, and ad hominem attacks? Fine. I can play too.

You might feel more comfortable repeatedly chanting liberal but the facts don't line up. I'm an anarchist with libertarian leanings. I break a bunch of laws, though none which harm anyone in the least because I strive always for taking full responsibility for my own life, and don't have a lot of patience with nonsensical aspects of the legal game. I don't milk the 'free' healthcare system, haven't even accessed any health services in over twenty years as I take care of myself. Liberals make me feel a bit ill, but they're somewhat closer to the mark than your style of conservatism, which is really just a thinly glazed over ruse which is aimed at rendering a few rich people even richer and making the majority of their victims believe, deep down, that they have a hope in hell of ever becoming rich themselves if they just work hard enough. Your kind are blinded to the actual nature of he world by a string of wacky delusions you've been fed since you were born regarding 'freedom.' Actual socially responsible behavior is often beyond your reckoning, let alone your actual deeds. Your kind will continue to drive gas burning monstrosities until you've helped turn this blue planet brown. I've never driven and never shall. You would take a life over a wallet without hesitation, easily justifying it to yourself through a self-righteous rationale which would make any of the great philosophers, who actually forced themselves to think (rather than just feel, as your kind do - while ironically pointing that particular finger at guys like me), squirm. You have little conscience except insofar as it serves your own selfishness. And your spelling and grammar... well, you don't really give a rat's ass about that do you?
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by poikilotrm »

Dear god... :lol:
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by a_canadian »

Yup. About as intelligent a reply as I'm growing accustomed to getting from you.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by poikilotrm »

a_canadian wrote:Yup. About as intelligent a reply as I'm growing accustomed to getting from you.
Ya know, you want me to shut up, but I desperately want you to keep talking. :lol:
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by doubloon »

KiA wrote:...
legally when the thief disengages ...
Except in Texas, at night.

I can let that fella carrying those eggs he just took from my hen house run 300 yards toward the treeline and drop him Quatermain style for his troubles.

I know there's probably an article somewhere that will show how I can get in trouble for this in China but this ain't f*king China.
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Re: Concealed Carry. Why bother?

Post by silencertalk »

I was a victim of crime three times in my first hour in the city of Naples Italy just now. I recovered my money all three times with some effort.
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