Concealed Carry. Why bother?

[poikilotrm]

So when I had to drop off/ escort a young female employee to her home at 2AM in the center of the worst part of Oakland, CA, was I an idiot or a hero? I think neither, but I was damned well carrying openly on my hip, and for good reason.

[a_canadian]

Why open carry in that situation? Do you want to invite more attention than the bare minimum? I'd say yes, by openly carrying a firearm in a difficult scenario you were being an idiot because you were inviting confrontation. Confrontation is the last thing you should be inviting. Be ready. Be aware. But don't look for trouble by advertising the fact that you are prepared for battle. I doubt the gang bangers and wannabes are ever really ready to snipe someone such as yourself. They tend to present themselves, to confront the intended victim. It is at that point when the firearm should make its appearance, not before. Else you are just escalating the situation before there is even a situation to escalate.

[TROOPER]

So when I had to drop off/ escort a young female employee to her home at 2AM in the center of the worst part of Oakland, CA, was I an idiot or a hero? I think neither, but I was damned well carrying openly on my hip, and for good reason.

.... ok, so there is more than one reason. However, the underlying theme is the same: that typically, the benefits do not out-weigh the detriments.

Mind you, if someone else wants to OC, that's between them and not-me.

[poikilotrm]

Why open carry in that situation? Do you want to invite more attention than the bare minimum? I'd say yes, by openly carrying a firearm in a difficult scenario you were being an idiot because you were inviting confrontation. Confrontation is the last thing you should be inviting. Be ready. Be aware. But don't look for trouble by advertising the fact that you are prepared for battle. I doubt the gang bangers and wannabes are ever really ready to snipe someone such as yourself. They tend to present themselves, to confront the intended victim. It is at that point when the firearm should make its appearance, not before. Else you are just escalating the situation before there is even a situation to escalate.

You're a beta. You have made beta statements like the one above before. You don't understand people, and you don't understand thugs. Thugs want UNARMED DEFENSELESS victims. They are not eager to go up against someone who can fight back.

[a_canadian]

You're of course free to fling all the insults you think might sting, but the fact remains that an ace in the hole beats showing one's cards to a deadly enemy. Do you honestly imagine thugs won't simply modify their tactics and take your gun when you're so blatantly displaying it? Talk about beta. That is the way mall ninjas think. You imagine that you can intimidate actual murderous thugs by showing off your weapon? Please.

[poikilotrm]

It isn't an insult, it's just how you view the world. I can tell you have no real world experience. You have never been in a fight in your life, and you have never dealt with nasty little scumbags. Your view of life is a product of fantasy and unsubstantiated opinion.

War game it man. See it in your head. Play the scumbag. Who would you rather go after to rob or otherwise harm, the guy with a gun on his hip, or the guy without?

And as far as intimidating murderous thugs by open display of a weapon, well, I have never had it work for me except in New Orleans, San Francisco, Atlanta, Iraq, and a few other places. How about you? Where you been? What you done? Hmm?

[a_canadian]

I've persuaded an angry drunk with a fist knife not to kill me, while holding a hammer in case he changed his mind. I've taken down a guy who came at me in a completely dark basement with a wrench and explained that he needed to drop it or have his larynx crushed. I've waded through a crowd of idiots standing slack-jawed around a vicious attack on an old dude and chased off the attackers, leaving when an officer finally arrived... one block from the main police station.. I've taken a guy down with nothing more than a broom handle when he encroached on a store I was remodelling and tried to wreck the place. Carotid arteries are handy things when one knows how to abuse them. I haven't displayed my massive manliness by joining a bunch of joiners and going off to fight ridiculous wars, so yeah, i guess that makes me a beta in your estimation. I've dealt with the world as it has presented itself to me, and I have not lost. Haven't had to present a firearm so far either. Guess that makes me a sissy, eh? God damn some people are insecure...

[YugoRPK]

Guess that makes me a sissy, eh?

Nah, just makes you a canadian.

[ick]

That was pretty geed observation Yugo, eh?

lol.

I must say I enjoyed both aspects of those replies from canadian and pokémon. I can clearly see both sides of open carry made in those posts.

[dtom29]

...
Until you ...

He didn't say it NEVER happens. He said he believes the majority of criminals will avoid encounters with obviously armed or formidable individuals. Asking for proof of how many times something hasn't happened is absurd.
I also subscribe to the belief that the majority of criminals are looking for victims and not challenges or worthy adversaries.

Living in fear of all my choices making me a target for some nut job is no way to go through life.

If it helps your cause, here is one report of an open carry citizen targeted for his gun. Search as hard as you want, this is the only case I know about. You may find more but it's definitely the exception and not the norm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx_YUO4SzcY

And before anybody goes ga-ga over the idea this guy was targeted over some expensive, rare, collectible firearm it was a Walther P22. The robber probably felt gypped once he had time to check out his "prize" and threw it in a sewer.
http://koin.com/2014/10/07/man-practici ... ed-of-gun/

That was the point. No one can say that it never happened or never will. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that "most" criminals are looking for victims and not challenges. But until you can say "all" instead of "majority" I stand by my assertion. I don't live in fear, I've carried concealed for 38 years, I have seen/read/experienced nothing that changes my mind that low key isn't an advantage when navigating through normal society.

[poikilotrm]

Canadian, in every example you just cited, a weapon of some sort was displayed. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch, ain't it?

[a_canadian]

Hey goober. In every instance the situations were resolved without the use if a firearm. Closest I came to using the hammer was to keep a couple of fingers touching the handle while it was sticking out of my tool bag. I was in shadow and there is no way the guy with the knife ever noticed it. In the case of the broom, it was a simple matter of my having the thing in my hands because I was sweeping up sawdust. If no broom I would have used my hands, but of course with that comes more risk of damage to myself. I feel that a good stick of some sort is probably the best open carry tool for many situations and often regret not having a bad knee or some other excuse for carrying one. The old guy being kicked to death I front of about fifty hawking onlookers was being kicked in the head and chest. I suppose the boots of his two attackers were weapons... but that seems a bit of a stretch even for you. Cognitive dissonance? Not seeing it... unless you're talking about your own ravings.

[TROOPER]

Well this has certainly devolved.

[doubloon]

That was pretty geed observation Yugo, eh?
...

Sarcasm with a touch of snarkiness ... a rare treat.

[doubloon]

...
That was the point. ...

Just checking. I read more absoluteness in your post than you may have intended.

We're closer of the same mind on this topic than it may appear. About the only time I think I might open carry is when I'm off property at night when I'm not dressed in clothes that lend themselves to concealing and no one is likely to see the gun unless they're on top of me in the dark.

[doubloon]

Well this has certainly devolved.

I am willing to contribute to crowdfunding them a room ... or a ring.

[a_canadian]

Thought this was the room. Or the ring. And that it was free of charge, so no crowd funding necessary. Hey, I'm willing to play nice, but when people start calling names that's the point of devolution. I could of course elect to ignore poikilotrm's trolling as he's blatantly insulting me for whatever reasons. My opinion holds that people who resort to such immature gestures have already lost the argument, know it, and are flailing about trying to win by other means. And if he spits in my eye, sure I'll spit back. Why not? Seems to be what he understands at this point.

[YugoRPK]

Thought this was the room. Or the ring. And that it was free of charge, so no crowd funding necessary. Hey, I'm willing to play nice, but when people start calling names that's the point of devolution. I could of course elect to ignore poikilotrm's trolling as he's blatantly insulting me for whatever reasons. My opinion holds that people who resort to such immature gestures have already lost the argument, know it, and are flailing about trying to win by other means. And if he spits in my eye, sure I'll spit back. Why not? Seems to be what he understands at this point.

If you want to take "your'e a canadian" as an insult...well, OK, thats understandable but its your screen name for crying out loud, eh.

[TROOPER]

Yugo's avatar has great chesticals, but her hour-glass shape.... it isn't hour-glass. What happened there? I like the upstairs just fine in general, but I need the contrasting flare of the hips to finish out. It's not a butt-thing... it's a hip thing. And your avatar doesn't have them.

I'm not offended, I'm just left with a weird indifference. It's like great cake-icing... but on the wrong food.

[poikilotrm]

Yugo, they prefer to be called Canuckistani.

Canadian, a weapon is a weapon. I can kill MORE easily with a knife than a gun in a close in fight. Your argument is basicall "guns are bad", which once again reinforces your beta appearance and marks you as a not-so-closeted hoplophobic liberal.

Also, WTH is a "fist knife"?

Edited to add- boots sure are weapons. Ag battery for using them in many jurisdictions.

[YugoRPK]

Yugo's avatar has great chesticals, but her hour-glass shape.... it isn't hour-glass. What happened there? I like the upstairs just fine in general, but I need the contrasting flare of the hips to finish out. It's not a butt-thing... it's a hip thing. And your avatar doesn't have them.

I'm not offended, I'm just left with a weird indifference. It's like great cake-icing... but on the wrong food.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I stopped by a strip club in Portland a few months ago and there was her twin. Coffee can tits but the butt of a 10 year old cub scout. Nothing to grab hold of.

When i got home and I was banging Mrs. RPK I only spent half the time thinking about the girl at the strip club because I am a gentleman.

[a_canadian]

You don't see any of this as directly insulting while also being presumptuous, facile, arrogant and a whole lot of other negative elements besides?

You're a beta. You have made beta statements like the one above before. You don't understand people, and you don't understand thugs. Thugs want UNARMED DEFENSELESS victims. They are not eager to go up against someone who can fight back.

Perhaps in his culture this is acceptable? Not where I come from. It's extraordinarily rude. This guy knows precisely nothing about my life. I know nothing of his except what he talks about here, and from what he's said in this thread it sounds like he's paraded a pistol around in a lot of places in order to impress imagined and perhaps real thugs. What a hero.

A fist knife, really, you have no idea? They're knives designed for stabbing while punching. A T-handled sort of thing. Much like brass knuckles, only there's a blade instead of a band of metal in front of the knuckles. Fairly common among street thugs. A friend of mine was a bouncer next to another bouncer at a night club when a US Marine, aged 18, used one to stab the other bouncer twice through the heart then turn and stab another bystander in the neck, then run away. The one punched in the heart died within half a minute. The other one pulled through, barely. The 'soldier' dickhead who was demanding to be allowed into a nightclub though he was well under the 19 year old minimum age in Canada for drinking establishments (and 3 years too young in his own country) was stopped by police several blocks away, and US Military lawyers managed to get him a 4 year prison sentence for the murder.

As for you guys persisting in labelling me as 'beta' from your lofty perches as top dogs (apparently carrying a handgun around makes you an 'alpha' - really a very silly argument if that's any part of your point) because I don't carry a handgun, that really makes no sense to me. It's like suggesting the natives our collective ancestors or their relatives stole from the first people of this continent were somehow 'beta' because they lacked muskets, or that they became 'alpha' when the started using them, both equally absurd notions. These wolf/dog related terms have no bearing when it comes to firearms. A gun is something I shoot when I want to shoot a gun. People are to be dealt with as they approach me, as seems appropriate. If I happen to need to improvise in defending myself, so be it, I'll deal with the situation should there be an attacker against myself or someone nearby. In my half-century of life I've had no real difficulty in this regard. I've met a number of Americans who expressed a lot of fear when walking through some parts of my city, saying things like 'Damn, I will never go to that part of town again, felt like I was naked without my gun!" This is after merely visiting briefly parts of town where I've lived for years without anything more difficult than a neighbour's car window being broken or maybe their house robbed while they were out. I did manage to assist in a number of thieves being captured, as I work at home and often witnessed suspicious activities. But these are petty crimes, weaponless crimes, and responding with a handgun would be absurdly disproportionate behaviour. Does that make me somehow less deserving of respect, because I did not shoot anyone during their commission of property crimes?

I see a lot of discussion in this forum, and on NFATalk, and other US-based gun-related forums, which seems to indicate that this mindset is quite prevalent, though hardly universal. The idea that when someone is taking something, stealing something, that it is the right of a citizen to shoot that criminal in defence of the property in question. Perhaps this attitude makes it more understandable that your gun crime rate is so very high. But it does not make it understandable on any moral grounds. A thief is a thief. A murderer is a murder. Learn to detect the difference. Escalating by openly carrying a firearm, or even by presenting a firearm when there is no sane reason to do so, is to participate in moving your society further down a road which it has already travelled much too far.

And yeah, Canuckistani's fine by me, though I abhor hockey. Useless, silly sport. As is my joining this place I suppose... but it's interesting once in a while.

[TROOPER]

As for you guys persisting in labelling me as 'beta'...

"guys"? Plural? I can't swear to it, but I don't recall the labeling of this thread being a group-effort. As for whether poikilotrm is right or wrong in his labeling is one thing, but I do feel confident in saying that other forum members have bumped heads with poikilotrm before, so your experience with him is hardly unique.

I see a lot of discussion in this forum, and on NFATalk, and other US-based gun-related forums, which seems to indicate that this mindset is quite prevalent, though hardly universal. The idea that when someone is taking something, stealing something, that it is the right of a citizen to shoot that criminal in defence of the property in question. Perhaps this attitude makes it more understandable that your gun crime rate is so very high. But it does not make it understandable on any moral grounds. A thief is a thief. A murderer is a murder. Learn to detect the difference. Escalating by openly carrying a firearm, or even by presenting a firearm when there is no sane reason to do so, is to participate in moving your society further down a road which it has already travelled much too far.

All pterodactyls were dinosaurs, but not all dinosaurs were pterodactyls. It's fun to say because of the juxtaposition AND quantity of syllables, but the underlying theme is one to take-to-heart as well. There are people who carry guns who live under the pervasive cloud that they need it, and, will inevitably be forced to use it. Those people don't find any commonality of thought inside of anti-gun forums, so they instead come to gun-forums. They're a minority of opinion, but they also have a tendency to share that opinion quite vocally. It can give a false perception about just how much of a minority they are. If you look at this particular forum, for example, the total number of registered users is more than twice the number of individuals who post. Right away, this tells you that you and I are a minority on this forum already since we're posting. Even amongst those who post, the number who engage in non-technical matters -- IE, talking politics, society, religion, etc -- are also a minority of people who post at all. Finally, within the number who post on non-technical matters, those that espouse the qualities you've mentioned are even more of a minority. But you have got to keep it in context of the absolute numbers involved. it's just too easy to overlook the silent ones.

All of that said, your offering your opinion of America based on a few guys?

And you're offering your opinion on morality. Ok, but keep in mind that it is, in fact, an opinion. Worse, it's an opinion without context. If you divide the world up based on nationality so that half are on one side and half are on the other, you'll find that the US is on the 'safer side', with a murder rate that puts us in the upper-half. It's also improving.... while even more guns get into mainstream population.

As far as killing for theft... theft can ruin a life. A person who spends decades of their life preparing for retirement only to have someone steal from them...? But that's a different topic.

Maybe I'm just being sensitive, but I don't want to hear any criticism of my country from a non-US citizen. I especially don't want to hear it while the US has an immigration problem from almost the entire world.

[ick]

As far as killing for theft... theft can ruin a life. A person who spends decades of their life preparing for retirement only to have someone steal from them...? But that's a different topic.

I saw this string sticking up in your verbal sweater so I thought I would try and clip it off so that it is complete. I wouldn't want someone to pull on it and leave a damaged garment.

Obviously someone in an alley that politely shows you a knife and asks for your wallet doesn't end up stealing most of your retirement plan... that kind of theft is generally reserved for wall street.... but I CAN say that the damage of being victimized in this way has a long trail of issues that follow. For example, I know some people that cannot bring themselves to ever ride the subway again after they experienced something violent or monetarily unpleasant. I know others that can never seem to have the absolute peace at home any longer... after they discover that during the night when they were away their sanctuary was violated. No quantity of alarms or dead-bolt locks can assuage their unsettled spirit.

[YugoRPK]

Theft=death. Sorry Canadians.