Concealed Carry. Why bother?

[TROOPER]

Well the false argument that gets run up the flagpole of both camps goes something like this:

My example: Enron stole my 401(k) and I'm broke after two decades... therefore theft = death.
Other side example: you'd kill a 6-year-old if you saw them stealing bubble-gum from a 7-11?

They're both extreme examples meant to belittle the other side's argument.

What is the actual reality? Burglar in my house. He's there for what he thinks he can sell quickly for easy cash. So he goes for the television and the Wii. What makes it complicated is that I happen to be home, but because my car is at the mechanic, the thief mis-judged. I come out of the bedroom because the noise that I'm hearing is significantly different than what I normally hear from my cat. Now we're two men standing in a living room -- MY living room -- and we're looking at each other. This guy doesn't want to kill me, but he doesn't want to go to prison either. I don't want to kill this guy, but I'm not letting the situation resolve by holding the door open for him either. The disagreement comes when I ask him to stay... then insist that he stay... then demand that he stay... the ultimately attempt to make him stay. The closer the siren comes, the more likely 5-10 is sounding since, unbeknownst to me, guy has a few prior convictions and Judge Fershand has told him that if he appears in her court again, it's going to be severe.

We're not fighting over my 42" Sanyo... he's going to do what he feels he must to avoid the very high odds that he's going away for a life-changing sentence if he DOESN'T leave. I'm doing it because I've had my house broken into four years ago, and even though the home-owner's insurance only had a $500 deductible, I've had enough time to stew on it that I am also at a fork-in-the-road regarding the rest of my life. If I don't do this now, I won't be the same person. This will slowly poison every aspect of my life because the disappointment that I feel for myself will turn to genuine hatred... and that hatred is going to eventually cause me to isolate myself by alienating those close to me. I know myself well enough to know how I'll react, and that's how it will play out.

I'm not preserving a semi-disposable, easily replaceable good, I'm defending the intangibles of my self. Backing down is not an option.

THIS is a contest-of-wills that is settled by blood-letting. And the person who let's the most blood out of their opponent the fastest is virtually guaranteed to be the winner.

I might would feel different if I come out of my bedroom and see an obviously malnourished teen stuffing slices of bread into their mouth, and pity and sympathy aside, I wouldn't feel the same type of terrible watching that person panic their way out of the house. But understanding that you have become an unwitting, un-resisting piece of cattle for someone else to continually profit on cannot be allowed to happen.

---- side note: When I lived in Texas many, many years ago, I lived in a trailer on the edge of a suburb that was on the edge of San Antonio. At night, I would hear coyotes howling since there was essentially nothing on that side of my neighborhood. So I had a lot of stray cats hanging around, and I took a liking to this big Tuxedo Tom. I'd put out food for him, but other cats would show up and eat it. I didn't care... as long as they didn't fight with my Tuxedo.

Well it turns out that most cats don't understand English well enough to transfer a concept as complex as "you can eat IF you don't fight", so of course the cats would fight. I shot many of them. But one day I had lent my suppressed 9mm out to a friend so he could poach deer (statute of limitations -- suck it, DAs)... and wouldn't you know it, my big Tuxedo and a different fluffy, white cat were in the yard pre-growling, like a couple of Old West gunslingers... each one standing statue-still as they dared the other to make the first move. I watched for a moment from the porch, wondering what I should do since my normal course-of-action -- 147 gr 9mm hollow-point via a CX4 Storm and an AAC Evo-9 -- wasn't feasible. Then I think, "What the heck? I'm me, and that's a cat. I'll just go deal with it."

Well these two stupid cats have the worst situational awareness as they have locked-in tunnel-vision on one another. The end result is that the big fluffy, white cat didn't even notice me until I had my hands on it. I didn't take into account the difference between the struggle that we each held. I intend to kill the cat, whereas he intended to live. If I failed, nothing would happen. If he failed, then EVERYTHING would happen. This gave him more enthusiasm than I had since the stakes were so much higher. So I seize this cat by the spine between his hips and rib-cage, and by his neck. He immediately twists his head around and sinks little needle teeth into the webbing between my thumb and fore-finger. I don't think he fully understood the situation, but instead, was simply dealing with the threats in terms of priority.... and tightening-object-on-neck was priority one, and putting some little needle-holes into it was what he had at his disposal so it's what he did. This cat... he was a resister... but not a fighter. So he clamped on and that's what he did. He didn't release and try again and again, he didn't scribble teeth in me the way some predators do, and he didn't slash with his jaws.

Well that proved to be fortuitous for me since, once he was in, he was in, and I didn't need to concern myself with an unfolding situation so much as a situation which has rapidly hit a stale-mate. So I figure I've got two hands... so my other hand pinches his tummy, then yanks. Hot, wet, and smelling faintly of sweat and copper, that fluffy mat of fur became soggy - like a crimson mud coat. It wasn't a gushing, just a growing blot. But when I realized that I had a hole, I stuck my hand in it and, then my other hand which the cat had opted to release, and I pulled that cat apart... sort of. Of course it stayed in one piece, but I wasn't just under the skin, I was between the organs, and that cat spilled onto the grass. He didn't sprint right away, and that was the last mistake. I guess he was distressed at the amount of grass that was sticking to his prior insides, and while he contemplated that with a distressed noise, I grabbed his face and shoulders and twisted his head until it was limp. Turns out a cat's face and its angular shape are basically perfect for palming with a very sure grip.

I do recall its face and the look of panic. I also recall seeing just how quickly its domestication was abandoned as it reverted back to 100% animal... maybe something more basic than just "an animal".

By pure coincidence about a month later, I saw a wee little kid... maybe 7 or 8... not 9, pocket some Pop Rocks at a Wal-Mart check out. His mom was loading the conveyor built with the goods from the cart and he had been pleading with her to get the candy for him, but she had declined. I appreciate that he didn't look smug and punkish as he put the black-and-pink packet under his shirt. I thought it was somewhat adorable to see him crouched down like that, the way little kids often do. I didn't get the impression that he was a little criminal, but just a wee kid who wanted candy, was refused it, and decided to take it. He saw me see him, and the look on his face reminded me very much of that cat. I had just the whisper of a thought that this little animal could wet the floor the way that cat wet that scrubby patch of lawn if... if....

I think it's weird when I sit at this keyboard to type a response to someone's reply, because the amount of times that I backspace and re-do a turn-of-phrase, or simply back out a sentence because it was inappropriate.... well... it's strange to do that to one's thoughts as well. I backspaced out that thought before it could finish, but it still made me think that maybe what I'm thinking isn't really what I'm thinking -- that maybe I'm thinking what someone deeper inside of me is letting me think. That maybe I'm just reading what deeper-me is letting me see.

Sometimes I think about that kid and how many days he had to wait before he was sure I hadn't told his mom. A week? Maybe just half-a-week? And what did his mom think over that period of time since that kid probably acted guilty as sin until he was fairly certain that she didn't know?

---------

I wouldn't kill a four-year-old for stealing bubble gum. I would end up killing a thief in my house. It would be quicker than it needed to be, because that cat showed me that there's more than one view-point for a given situation, and what he's bet on the ensuing competition is different than what I've got at stake. I'm going to act on my prior knowledge and assume, correct or otherwise, that there is a series of gates to pass through, so there's no need for me to hear the whole joke again, I'll just skip to the punchline.

On the flip side of that, knowing what the punchline may well be, I'm likely to avoid those types of situations. It tickles me to hear people talk about 'blowing someone away" when it's clear from their description of how their 45 will "blow a man in half", that not only do they not understand the business end of their weapon, but they also have clearly not killed anything with it... or probably anything at all. I won't equate killing a deer or a cat to killing a person, but they're not completely independent either. Ultimately, violence is violence, even if the legal and moral consequences are dramatically varied. I don't know that I have more or less respect for a person who has engaged in violence, but they are a different person... they're a different type of person.

I can't tell if I'm ranting or venting or... confessing? Thief in my house, I know myself well enough to know that this is a dangerous situation for the other person, not because I'm some sort of SEAL-ninja-assassin-beret ... but because I go into the situation knowing the situation, knowing myself, knowing why I'm about to do what I'm about to do, and knowing what happens if I don't.

[poikilotrm]

Perhaps in his culture this is acceptable? Not where I come from. It's extraordinarily rude. This guy knows precisely nothing about my life. I know nothing of his except what he talks about here, and from what he's said in this thread it sounds like he's paraded a pistol around in a lot of places in order to impress imagined and perhaps real thugs. What a hero.

Are you just stretching as hard as you can to support the whole beta thing? Sheesh.

A fist knife, really, you have no idea? They're knives designed for stabbing while punching. A T-handled sort of thing. Much like brass knuckles, only there's a blade instead of a band of metal in front of the knuckles.

Yeah, we call them T handle knives. Pretty on point, but, ya know...

As for you guys persisting in labelling me as 'beta' from your lofty perches as top dogs (apparently carrying a handgun around makes you an 'alpha'

No, it makes me smart and prepared. I'm an alpha because I was born that way.

But these are petty crimes, weaponless crimes, and responding with a handgun would be absurdly disproportionate behaviour. Does that make me somehow less deserving of respect, because I did not shoot anyone during their commission of property crimes?

We are Homo sapiens. That means "wise man". We are "wise" because we use tools. Guns are tools. Your willing failure to have a proper tool on hand makes you unwise. Being deliberately unwise makes you undeserving of respect.

The idea that when someone is taking something, stealing something, that it is the right of a citizen to shoot that criminal in defence of the property in question.

Absolutely.

Perhaps this attitude makes it more understandable that your gun crime rate is so very high. But it does not make it understandable on any moral grounds. A thief is a thief. A murderer is a murder. Learn to detect the difference. Escalating by openly carrying a firearm, or even by presenting a firearm when there is no sane reason to do so, is to participate in moving your society further down a road which it has already travelled much too far.

A scumbag is a scumbag. Your life and property are your own, and to a certain extent, they are one and the same. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTDbH_Ruojw

[TROOPER]

A scumbag is a scumbag. Your life and property are your own, and to a certain extent, they are one and the same.

This. My life and my possessions aren't the same... but they're hardly opposites. At any rate, it isn't me deciding to "take a life for a TV"... but rather, it's the other guy deciding to GIVE his life for a TV.

I'm not vicious, he's just a dumbass.

[doubloon]

...
Yeah, we call them T handle knives. Pretty on point, but, ya know...
...

Push knife also. Allows for shapes other than "T"

[poikilotrm]

Push knife also. Allows for shapes other than "T"

Yep.

[a_canadian]

We are Homo sapiens. That means "wise man". We are "wise" because we use tools. Guns are tools. Your willing failure to have a proper tool on hand makes you unwise. Being deliberately unwise makes you undeserving of respect.

So are you now suggesting that because you were born in a gun-toting country you are an 'alpha' and 'wise' and also that because I was born in a country where carrying a handgun is illegal (except for police) I am both beta and unwise by birth? How quaint.

Sorry Trooper, for the earlier mis-step regarding who slung what mud. I was writing on my phone and didn't scroll left to see who was calling me 'beta' for the second time, thought it was you. My apologies, it was of course porkertrim.

[TROOPER]

We are Homo sapiens. That means "wise man". We are "wise" because we use tools. Guns are tools. Your willing failure to have a proper tool on hand makes you unwise. Being deliberately unwise makes you undeserving of respect.

So are you now suggesting that because you were born in a gun-toting country you are an 'alpha' and 'wise' and also that because I was born in a country where carrying a handgun is illegal (except for police) I am both beta and unwise by birth? How quaint.

Sorry Trooper, for the earlier mis-step regarding who slung what mud. I was writing on my phone and didn't scroll left to see who was calling me 'beta' for the second time, thought it was you. My apologies, it was of course porkertrim.

No, no, no... I didn't point that out because I was fishing for an apology; I pointed it out to diffuse tension, not force a confrontation. Apology completely unnecessary. And frankly, that you thought we were ganging up on you and you still managed to stay relatively civil ... it's admirable.

Look at this oddity of state law for Georgia:

Under Georgia law, active duty military personnel are exempted from the requirement of a firearms permit. The exemption is not limited to the performance of military duty. These personnel may, upon request, obtain a firearms permit if otherwise qualified. Their dependents may be issued a permit if otherwise qualified only upon establishing residency in this state. Law enforcement officers are also exempt from the requirement to obtain a permit.

... well I'm active duty, and I could carry a gun as easily as that... no permit, no background check, no nothing.


... and I STILL don't do it. Can't explain why. It's just funny that this technically makes me also a 'unwise' and unworthy of respect. Which sucks. Maybe one day I will start to carry.

[a_canadian]

Well you know us canuckistanis... apologizing is in the blood.

Indeed that last comment seems to connect more to the open carry argument than most of what's been said in this discussion. It's an emotional thing. It's about 'manning up' and being 'alpha.' Somehow, for a small but vocal and sometimes deeply troubling sector of the American male population, thrusting weapons under the noses of others has become much more than a right, but a key element in building their sense of manhood. Hence we see the regular Youtube videos and news items about confrontations between Second Amendment right to bear arms shenanigans on the streets of Washington or Texas or other states where open carry is technically legal. The police, to their immense credit, are often pretty cool about it. They ask for ID and try to divert all the obvious attempts of the gun-totin' fools to escalate with belligerent half-assed misquotations and statements about being a 'man of the land' or whatever. I watched one rather long one right through to the end last month, hilarious it was, this big fat moron desperately trying to egg the cop on and getting absolutely nothing for his trouble. You couldn't write this stuff! Beats mainstream TV by a country mile for laughs.

Funny part is, looking at most of these guys and their glorified mall ninja antics, I truly doubt most of them would know how to respond effectively in an actual crisis. It's plain their pulse rates go through the roof just talking to the cops. Blood pressure must be near boiling over. Imagine one of these 'prepper' enthusiasts being confronted by a guy who actually knows how to handle a pistol, who shoves it up under his nose in about 0.3 seconds with his finger half-pulling the trigger. How's his second amendment play-acting going to serve him then? That $1,000 pistol on his hip is going bye-bye. If he's got an AK strapped over his shoulder there's no way he's spinning it around in time to deal with an actual surprise attack, and it's gone too. Then you've got a lardy fool with no guns, but he's a witness... and the thug has his guns...

As to defending one's home and family, that's of course a situation where escalation to deadly violence may prove necessary and where timing may well be critical. If carrying a handgun were legal in my country I have little doubt that I'd do so, but in a manner such that no one would ever notice it unless and until lead needed to fly. As it stands, use of a firearm to defend myself or my family is utterly forbidden here. This was clearly established in a case several years back in Ontario, where a guy came under attack, fire was being used on his house and his dog, it was not the first time. Some weird feud with a neighbour which had triggered the victim to set up a large number of video cameras around the property. The guy was a firearms instructor on contract to the police and military. But when he took a pistol from his safe at first light and loaded it, stepped out onto the porch and fired a couple of warning shots in a safe direction, apparently he was in the wrong. Cost something to the tune of $400,000 to defend his case. Fortunately Canadians came through and donated what they could. I'd rather not put myself in that situation.

So if attacked in my home I'll do what's necessary and proportional to defend our safety, and do my best to ensure that doesn't include doing anything which could put me in prison. Tricky subject, especially in a fast-changing situation where I'm called upon to make very solid decisions in small parts of seconds. Fortunately my experiences over the past 30-odd years in dealing with various aggressors has been reassuring in this regard. I tend to react effectively and appropriately. No one gets to hurt me or my family, no one has, and no one will. I stay strong such that physical limitations won't likely be a factor. I sleep lightly. Raccoons rarely make it even close to the cat door before I get up and chase them off with a stick, often getting a whack to the haunch in to teach them a little about not coming back. A human miscreant is unlikely to enter our home so stealthily as a raccoon, owing to the way I've set up entry point limitations.

As for dealing with bad guys in the street... it's really rarely a problem in my city and if it did become a problem I'd improvise. If alone, the ability to move quickly and get away is paramount. Any self-defense trainer worth his salt will say the same thing; knowing how to run is your best line of defense so long as that's an option. If trapped I'll do whatever is necessary to win. Dying isn't something I've the slightest interest in doing before I'm at least 100. Later if possible. About 15 miles South of us is a satellite city where street thugs are openly doing battle, with most casualties being the idiots involved in gang/drug activity. It's a city I've never considered living in, not in the ~35 years I've been aware of its reputation, which in recent years has only worsened. It's a city without direction. Bad leaders have been replaced by worse leaders. Fortunately that's some distance off and for the most part doesn't creep North. So far. If it does, perhaps I'll have to reconsider our defense options. Won't be moving as my clients are almost all within an hour of us and need to be able to get to my shop.

I suppose some of that makes me lucky in terms of the subject at hand. The relative peace of our city makes carrying a handgun kind of irrelevant. Street robberies are rare. Home invasions just as rare if not more so. Our nation's laws regarding handgun use seem perfectly acceptable in that context. But if I lived in that satellite city, or in parts of Toronto or Montreal or Winnipeg, I would probably feel differently. So I'm lucky, but I try not to gloat about it. And I do feel for you guys who find yourselves in difficult cities in the USA. That can't be fun, especially raising a family. But if I were in such a situation, such as much of urban Florida for example, I'd almost without a doubt carry a pistol at all times. But never openly. Advertising one's main line of defense just seems foolhardy.

[poikilotrm]

So are you now suggesting that because you were born in a gun-toting country you are an 'alpha'

Nnnnnooooooooo.

and 'wise'

Sigh. Nnnnnooooooooo.

I am both beta and unwise by birth? How quaint.

Yes and no. You're a beta because of the stuff and the timbre of the stuff you post. You're a beta because the socialist system you have been poisoned by espouses emasculation. They are trying like hell to do the same thing here: "Don't fight boys. Use your words."

Sorry Trooper, for the earlier mis-step regarding who slung what mud. I was writing on my phone and didn't scroll left to see who was calling me 'beta' for the second time, thought it was you. My apologies, it was of course porkertrim.

Your reading comprehension is in the toilet.

[poikilotrm]

... and I STILL don't do it. Can't explain why. It's just funny that this technically makes me also a 'unwise' and unworthy of respect. Which sucks. Maybe one day I will start to carry.

You get your butt stomped in Atlanta or Savannah, I promise to make fun of you.

[poikilotrm]

It's an emotional thing. It's about 'manning up' and being 'alpha.'

No, it's a logical thing where you acknowledge that there are bad people in the world who want to hurt you and your's, and you make a conscious effort to prepare for that possibility.

Imagine one of these 'prepper' enthusiasts being confronted by a guy who actually knows how to handle a pistol, who shoves it up under his nose in about 0.3 seconds with his finger half-pulling the trigger. How's his second amendment play-acting going to serve him then?

Here ya go, sport: http://www.policeone.com/officer-shooti ... op-ambush/ Mock those poor "mall ninjas".

As to defending one's home and family, that's of course a situation where escalation to deadly violence may prove necessary and where timing may well be critical. If carrying a handgun were legal in my country I have little doubt that I'd do so, but in a manner such that no one would ever notice it unless and until lead needed to fly.

And that's a reasonable position.

So if attacked in my home I'll do what's necessary and proportional to defend our safety, and do my best to ensure that doesn't include doing anything which could put me in prison. Tricky subject, especially in a fast-changing situation where I'm called upon to make very solid decisions in small parts of seconds. Fortunately my experiences over the past 30-odd years in dealing with various aggressors has been reassuring in this regard. I tend to react effectively and appropriately.

SSS.

As for dealing with bad guys in the street... it's really rarely a problem in my city and if it did become a problem I'd improvise. If alone, the ability to move quickly and get away is paramount. Any self-defense trainer worth his salt will say the same thing; knowing how to run is your best line of defense so long as that's an option.

Wow. Improvisation. Yeah. That'll work. Guess cops don't need to carry anymore, right? BTW, historically, most casualties happen to the guys WHO ARE RUNNING AWAY from a battle. It's a predator, hind brain sort of thing.

I suppose some of that makes me lucky in terms of the subject at hand. The relative peace of our city makes carrying a handgun kind of irrelevant.

If you live in Solla Sollew you don't need a bat. OK. Nobody lives there. There's a slippard in the key hole.

Advertising one's main line of defense just seems foolhardy.

So cops are foolhardy?

[ick]

It's an emotional thing. It's about 'manning up' and being 'alpha.'

No, it's a logical thing where you acknowledge that there are bad people in the world who want to hurt you and your's, and you make a conscious effort to prepare for that possibility.

In my younger years I was oblivious to this, for the most part. Now that I am a bit older I recognize these kinds of people. I have observed that different areas of the country have varying density and characteristics... but they are there.

Some just want to bum a smoke and if you let them, they WILL take more. Others would reach into your pocket or bank account and steal or "use hidden fees" if they think they can get away with it. Others are overt, as we seem to be discussing here. "They" are not always easy to spot, mind you. But they are there.

[doubloon]

No they aren't easy to spot.

The ones that bother me the most are the ones who present themselves as helpful to someone at a time of need. I know we could be talking about politicians now but I really mean the ones who present a more immediate threat.

[TROOPER]

... and I STILL don't do it. Can't explain why. It's just funny that this technically makes me also a 'unwise' and unworthy of respect. Which sucks. Maybe one day I will start to carry.

You get your butt stomped in Atlanta or Savannah, I promise to make fun of you.

I don't go to either of those places. That doesn't necessarily undo your underlying theme, but while I'm living without the most protection that could be mustered, the reality is that I also avoid places where I sense danger.

I may eventually be proven wrong. If that's true, then I'll start carrying afterwards. But I'm 37, and I guess that I'm basically half done with life. I predict that going forward, I'll be in less dangerous situations than I've been in so far (which isn't saying much).

Had I gone through your life experiences, poik, maybe I'd feel differently. Isn't it enough that I support your decision?

[ick]

No they aren't easy to spot.

Really? I am surprised you say that.

I am pretty good at recognizing someone that is a poor insurance risk. After all, that is where my knowledge and experience is focused. My insurance "spidey-sense" usually allows me to sense danger and I can spot them.

I have noticed that LEO, especially LEO with some experience... can sense them a mile away.

Apparently you haven't found the same. Hmm.

[doubloon]

Not enough experience I guess.

I think I have a pretty good hit rate but not 100%.

Agree that most LEO are well equipped for this task.

[TROOPER]

Not enough experience I guess.

I think I have a pretty good hit rate but not 100%.

Agree that most LEO are well equipped for this task.

Just assume everyone is a predator of some sort... you won't be wrong.

[KiA]

you were doing fine by me until this:

The idea that when someone is taking something, stealing something, that it is the right of a citizen to shoot that criminal in defence of the property in question. Perhaps this attitude makes it more understandable that your gun crime rate is so very high. But it does not make it understandable on any moral grounds. A thief is a thief. A murderer is a murder. Learn to detect the difference.

that's just liberalooney talk.

[YugoRPK]

A dead thief is no longer a problem.

[ick]

you were doing fine by me until this:

The idea that when someone is taking something, stealing something, that it is the right of a citizen to shoot that criminal in defence of the property in question. Perhaps this attitude makes it more understandable that your gun crime rate is so very high. But it does not make it understandable on any moral grounds. A thief is a thief. A murderer is a murder. Learn to detect the difference.

that's just liberalooney talk.

I thought trooper explained this a lot better than you did here KiA. No offense intended at your kurt reply, of course.

When Trooper discovers an unwelcome visitor in his living room in the middle of the night the situation is more complicated than "you should be able to tell the difference between a thief and a murderer". That is a whitewashed view of the situation.

Is the guy a 5 time offender and has the attitude "I ain't goin' back to prison, bitch." and will now do anything, including murder, to "get away with this". Perhaps he will just beat trooper so he has a significant limp the rest of his life and has all the consequences of serious back trouble, including a much shorter life expectancy.

It is UNREASONABLE for us to require trooper to "find out" what the consequences are going to be. It is UNREASONABLE for us to give trooper a tenth of a second to decide:

in the dark
with little or non information
unexpectedly
in a stressful situation

...what to do. Then we are to use hindsight and open a can of legal whoop-ass on him because trooper made the wrong decision in the eyes of bleeding heart social justice nutjobs? No thanks.

The guy stealing the TV CHOSE to put himself, and others mind you, in danger when he maliciously entered another person's home.

What if trooper was, instead of who he is... a weak helpless attractive young woman with no means to defend herself except for her S&W?

No, trooper has the right to defend himself in his own home.

[KiA]

i didn't want to go into details if he has no interest.

here's an article about a thief turned murderer.

ponder about that while i collect my thoughts.

[a_canadian]

From what I've just read about handgun permits in New York City, the victim would not have been able to carry a pistol as he was attending a college or university where pistol carrying is strictly forbidden. He may have been issued a permit for concealed carry, but the impracticality of divesting himself of the weapon before entering the campus (where, exactly?) and then retrieving it every single day would be more than just a little annoying. It's not going to happen. If he had carried anyway, breaking the law, it's a coin toss or worse betting on whether he'd have had time to draw and fire during the scuffle. It was a pickpocketing, which means the guy was already in direct contact with him before he was aware of the thief. Probably already had the knife in his other hand. Had he had a handgun in his waistband is it not likely this drugged-up loser would have gone for that instead of the phone? Then how many would have died?

In that case, attempting to put myself in the victim's place, I expect I'd have let him have the phone for a moment, then as he made his getaway I'd have damaged him and taken my phone back, having waited for a suitable moment of opportunity. If that opportunity didn't present itself I'd have tracked the thief while shouting for help and trying to enlist others in the pursuit, if practical, and breaking off the pursuit if it appeared too dangerous as in presentation of a knife or gun, or friends of the thief. Property isn't worth dying for. He fought for his phone like the kid in Ontario earlier this year, who tracked his stolen phone then cleverly grabbed the car door of the guys who stole it, who proceeded to shoot him dead. This kid made that same sort of mistake, fighting against an unknown quantity before taking a second to assess the situation.

Keeping your wits about you and using the little grey cells can make a world of difference as to outcomes.

[poikilotrm]

From what I've just read about handgun permits in New York City, the victim would not have been able to carry a pistol as he was attending a college or university where pistol carrying is strictly forbidden.

In which case, wisdom says, "sterile ammo, and to hell with their facially unconstitutional law"

In that case, attempting to put myself in the victim's place, I expect I'd have let him have the phone for a moment, then as he made his getaway I'd have damaged him and taken my phone back, having waited for a suitable moment of opportunity. If that opportunity didn't present itself I'd have tracked the thief while shouting for help and trying to enlist others in the pursuit, if practical, and breaking off the pursuit if it appeared too dangerous as in presentation of a knife or gun, or friends of the thief. Property isn't worth dying for. He fought for his phone like the kid in Ontario earlier this year, who tracked his stolen phone then cleverly grabbed the car door of the guys who stole it, who proceeded to shoot him dead. This kid made that same sort of mistake, fighting against an unknown quantity before taking a second to assess the situation.

Walter Mitty.

[a_canadian]

So you advocate students breaking laws and risking prison sentences to provide test cases for your favourite constitutional amendment? How charitable of you to take liberties with the lives and freedom of other people.

Walter Mitty? I think not. I based that scenario upon my own history. I know myself rather well, have seen how I behave in a wide range of circumstances. I don't live in some prepper's fantasy world like some folks around here, who seem to imagine that because they have guns they are somehow in control of every situation.

Look, I said what I might do, with my life experience, were I somehow to be in that kid's shoes. But the actuality is no one can be anyone else nor would I want to be. If that were me on that subway train, for starters I wouldn't be tucking my shiny smartphone into my belt. Seriously, what the hell? Did the victim think he was still on campus? And even then, who tucks their phone into their belt? It's just as stupid as tucking a pistol in one's belt then not being hyper-aware at every instant of the possibility of attackers grabbing the damned thing. Human beings are not hyper-aware at every instant of ANYTHING! We are distracted, dysfunctional, inefficient beings. Openly carrying a weapon on a New York subway train, unless you are a police officer whose partner is nearby (alone I wouldn't bet on the cop's chances of retaining his pistol in such a dense and chaotic environment as a subway car), seems blatantly foolhardy. Carrying a smartphone openly is even more idiotic as it presents nothing but pleasure for the would-be thief with no risk attached.

Blaming the victim? In part, yes, I am. The hopped-up idiot who tried to rob him then took his life gets the lion's share of the blame, but the victim labelled himself as the victim by presenting valuable, easily pawned property right out in the open for any potential thief to take. Stupidity invites criminals. I don't have my phone out while I'm on a commuter train or bus unless and until I have assessed the other riders, and even then only briefly should the need to answer a call or check for an anticipated message arise. Otherwise it stays hidden, period. I am only too aware of the rising tide of smartphone thefts in San Francisco, and the mirroring of those grab-and-run thefts on the rise in a number of other cities including my own. I don't display valuables of any sort while on public transit nor in any area where I am unsure of my surroundings, where a thief might have a momentary advantage. I don't walk down the sidewalk without being as aware as possible of the nearby traffic either, as I'm very aware that most drivers are very poorly trained and quite capable of jumping the curb and killing me and my child. I am ready to run and/or jump, every time there's a squeal of rubber on the road, an unusual gunning of an engine, any weird wobble in a vehicle. Wish I could say it was 100% of the time, but that'd be exhausting. So I focus on the times I'm walking with my son more, and especially around intersections where most such events occur.

[poikilotrm]

So you advocate students breaking laws and risking prison sentences to provide test cases for your favourite constitutional amendment?

[RosaParks] Absolutely. [/RosaParks]

How charitable of you to take liberties with the lives and freedom of other people.

I don't recall having done this.

Walter Mitty? I think not. I based that scenario upon my own history. I know myself rather well, have seen how I behave in a wide range of circumstances. I don't live in some prepper's fantasy world like some folks around here, who seem to imagine that because they have guns they are somehow in control of every situation.

Wow. You just have a complete failure of comprehension when it comes to how people think and act in the real world. A gun is a defensive tool. It is there for me to make many, many holes in a bad person who is acting violently. It is not there so I can control a situation. A lifeboat on a cruise ship is not there to control the vessel's sinking, it is there to save the lives of those threatened.

Look, I said what I might do, with my life experience, were I somehow to be in that kid's shoes. But the actuality is no one can be anyone else nor would I want to be. If that were me on that subway train, for starters I wouldn't be tucking my shiny smartphone into my belt. Seriously, what the hell?

Yeah! Screw that guy, thinking he could act in an inoffensive manner, not harming anyone, and just be left alone by others!

Did the victim think he was still on campus? And even then, who tucks their phone into their belt?

A lot of people.

It's just as stupid as tucking a pistol in one's belt then not being hyper-aware at every instant of the possibility of attackers grabbing the damned thing.

What kind of tool Mexican carries?

Human beings are not hyper-aware at every instant of ANYTHING! We are distracted, dysfunctional, inefficient beings. Openly carrying a weapon on a New York subway train, unless you are a police officer whose partner is nearby (alone I wouldn't bet on the cop's chances of retaining his pistol in such a dense and chaotic environment as a subway car), seems blatantly foolhardy. Carrying a smartphone openly is even more idiotic as it presents nothing but pleasure for the would-be thief with no risk attached.

No risk? You touch my weapon, you die.

Blaming the victim? In part, yes, I am.

Yes, you are.

The hopped-up idiot who tried to rob him then took his life gets the lion's share of the blame, but the victim labelled himself as the victim by presenting valuable, easily pawned property right out in the open for any potential thief to take.

Your morality is repulsive. Later, you can tell us how rape is OK because chicks wear skimpy clothes. And maybe those altar boys should quit looking so darned cute in their outfits, eh?

Stupidity invites criminals. I don't have my phone out while I'm on a commuter train or bus unless and until I have assessed the other riders, and even then only briefly should the need to answer a call or check for an anticipated message arise. Otherwise it stays hidden, period. I am only too aware of the rising tide of smartphone thefts in San Francisco, and the mirroring of those grab-and-run thefts on the rise in a number of other cities including my own. I don't display valuables of any sort while on public transit nor in any area where I am unsure of my surroundings, where a thief might have a momentary advantage. I don't walk down the sidewalk without being as aware as possible of the nearby traffic either, as I'm very aware that most drivers are very poorly trained and quite capable of jumping the curb and killing me and my child. I am ready to run and/or jump, every time there's a squeal of rubber on the road, an unusual gunning of an engine, any weird wobble in a vehicle. Wish I could say it was 100% of the time, but that'd be exhausting. So I focus on the times I'm walking with my son more, and especially around intersections where most such events occur.