Why own a shotgun? Might trade for a 45.70

[Kip42]

With the advent of body armor and the easier access to it by criminals, it would seem that a shotgun is less than ideal in todays world. It has bad sectional density therefore it would suck on large grizzly bears. Thinking about trading it for a 45.70 to carry on hikes.

[LYNRDSKYNRD]

I've seen body armor shot with a 45/70 it did not penetrate level 2 armor. Made a hell uva dent in the duct seal but didn't penetrate.

[woodstove]

A person even if wearing IIA boddy armour is hit in the centre of mass with 16 #1 buck pellets ,9-12 00 buck pellets o a slug , or a full load of just about anything they are out of the fight. You will render them unable to proceed.

With a load of # 71/2s in the face, arms or leggs and the agressor is out of the fight.

ease of use and high first round hit probabbility make the shotgun a great defensive tool.

[PTK]

A person even if wearing IIA boddy armour is hit in the centre of mass with 16 #1 buck pellets ,9-12 00 buck pellets o a slug , or a full load of just about anything they are out of the fight. You will render them unable to proceed.

With a load of # 71/2s in the face, arms or leggs and the agressor is out of the fight.

ease of use and high first round hit probabbility make the shotgun a great defensive tool.

One of my best friends was not taken out of the fight when hit with the first round of 12ga, in the vest (don't know if it was II or IIIa). He continued firing. The second shot put a pellet through his neck, severed his spine, and killed him, but the first round, less than 10 yards off, did not stop him from continuing to defend his life.

Furthermore, that isn't the only example that can be found - MANY times, both "bad guys" and "good guys" have been hit with 12ga, close range, and continued to fight even with broken ribs, etc. that occur through the vest from the impact deformation trauma to soft tissue.

I've seen body armor shot with a 45/70 it did not penetrate level 2 armor. Made a hell uva dent in the duct seal but didn't penetrate.

What was it backed with? Brand? Age? Storage conditions? I've personally put (handloaded) 350gr JFP .45-70 from my Guide Gun through IIIa test panels, without any issue at all. They were going ~2,200 FPS.

[LYNRDSKYNRD]

Condition was new point blank shot with factory ammo...don't know the weight or velocity, backing was a a managuin with duct seal in center mass area. That said a friend of mine handloaded some .357 mags that would penetrate a vest, but they weren't fun to shoot

I agree with you about shots to a vest.......Sorry to hear about your friend.

[woodstove]

Hey PTK.
My heart goes out to your friend.
The term hit is very vague. Not to take anything away from your buddy and I also do not want to insult you either.

A hit in a marginal area regardless of what it is doesn't have much effect on determined adversaries, LE folks or big game.
A good hit in a vital area with something even a small as 22lr under ideal conditions can be deadly.

I feel
A shotgun does it's best work when a full load or most of a full load hits the target. A grazing shot with even the biggest rifle or handgun bullet just hurts.

I personally would not give up a shotgun for a hard recoiling rifle for close in work. I feel a load of 71/2s in the face would stop or at least take the fight out of anyone with or without body armour.

[PTK]

He was shot with (if I recall right) 00 buck, 2-3/4", 28" barrel shotgun, COM, from the front. The first shot didn't take the fight out of him and he fired the rest of his pistol mag at the bastard, though. HARD, hard man. Hell of a good guy.

Anyway, just saying, shotguns aren't a death-ray, and I sure as hell wouldn't be caught with one loaded with damned birdshot! It's like using snake shot or plastic bullets in a SD handgun. It MIGHT work, but... why use anything less than the best?

But hey, this is America. If I were attacking you, I'd sure hope you had a 12ga loaded with birdshot, is all. I'm betting a criminal would hope the same.

[-k-]

All this bird shot talk is missing something the OP said, GRIZZLY. There is only one word that should follow grizzly and shotgun, that word is Brenneke.

I would recommend you chose the weapon you are most comfortable with. For example I would prefer a quality 12ga semi because:
I don't have much time shooting a lever gun.
I have and have seen others short stroke a pump under the stress of shooting birds.

[82nd airborne]

Steel shot will go through 3A soft armor, but, in my experience, round balls, buckshot included, isnt effective as 5.56 with good bullets, even at very close ranges. Round balls just dont cause near the tissue damage that conical bullets do, especially ones with the technology of today bullets, coupled with rediculous velocities. There's a reason why you put a shotgun on a sling and drop it for a carbine once the door has been breached. Its just not as effective as it is in the movies.

[Maser]

After reading the OP, I got the impression we were talking about bears wearing body armor. I don't see how a shotgun would not be effective for bear defense. You could always use the infamous buck shot/slug combo in the mag tube.

[-k-]

Birdshot is for birds.
Buckshot is for deer sized targets.
Hardened slugs are a good choice for larger bears, when you need deep penetration.

[silencertalk]

All this bird shot talk is missing something the OP said, GRIZZLY. There is only one word that should follow grizzly and shotgun, that word is Brenneke.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=669027

[DEVIL DOC]

All this bird shot talk is missing something the OP said, GRIZZLY. There is only one word that should follow grizzly and shotgun, that word is Brenneke.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=669027

I think you'd need for "best" result a fully rifled barrel or at least a rifled choke tube. No argument about 385 grs moving at 1850fps, that would drop most anything like a sack of door knobs. Now for bird shot..... It is lethal, though it may not always or even 50% of the time kill instantly or incapacitate but after being shot you run a very very high probability of passing away from an occlusion caused by the projectiles especially when there are hundreds of them in your chest and lungs......... good luck with in the ER, last I read doctors are on par with cancer as far as lethality. Enough of the devils advocate, If you want them done right go into the job with the right tools. Home defense in a large family home I would suggest BBB, T shot or some frangible 5.56, on the trail in bear country nothing without a jacket and a hollow point. Truthfully I always imagine the quintessential bear standing up mid roar as a zip a 10mm round into its mouth neatly placed where I would find the uvula on a human and watch that tub of lard drop like a building rigged with demo. Shot placement wins more gun fights then the calibers used.

[Gibal]

I have a 45-70 levergun and I'd still prefer a pump or auto shotgun. The 45-70 is a great round but you have to reload to really appreciate it since any factory ammo that worth a damn is $$$. This would probably do the trick as a SD load - http://www.lehighbullets.com/proddetail ... od=458-100 . My Marlin is nice as well but I still don't think its as reliable as an equally priced shotgun. I've had issues with rounds binding (even with proper OAL) and with the infamous Marlin trigger flop (not a reliability problem, just don't like it).

Shot placement wins more gun fights then the calibers used.

The 45-70's recoil has a faster impulse than a 12 ga. I think it's easier for a 12 ga to place a follow-up shot because of this.

If you already have a shotgun and are only thinking about getting a 45-70 as an upgrade then I'd say it's not worth it, you gave just buy some slugs like everyone else has said. But if you want one just to have one, then I'd say they are fun and to get one without Marlin's micro-rifling if you even plan on shooting lead.

Just my couple of pennies. Take it for what it worth, an internet opinion

[-k-]

That is advertised as deer ammo with no mention of penetration depth.

There is a big difference between hardened slugs like Brenneke and soft lead slugs that are in most shells. The soft slugs deform much more so they have far less penetration. I would want more rather then less penetration for large bears.

[DEVIL DOC]

Just sayin...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjqfRcnX ... ata_player

[silencertalk]

That is advertised as deer ammo with no mention of penetration depth.

There is a big difference between hardened slugs like Brenneke and soft lead slugs that are in most shells. The soft slugs deform much more so they have far less penetration. I would want more rather then less penetration for large bears.

True, the AccuTip may be set up for controlled penetration.

[silencertalk]

I have a Benelli and 300 BLK in my bedroom safe for home defense, in addition to the G19 that I am wearing now. I am not sure why I have both though, as I have no plans to pick up the shotgun because it is longer and I am less used to the operating method than an AR.

[eric10mm]

It's called a Failure Drill.

If repeated shots to the torso are not having the desired effect, change your point of aim. I suggest groin and head areas as alternate target zones.

[jlwilliams]

This conversation is a little confusing. Are we talking about 12g vs 45-70 for defense against body armored fellons, or against bears? Do you hike trails that have both? Maybe you need to find some different trails.

IMO, you should keep the shotgun and get a 45-70. They are so different from each other that you should have both. A guide gun will likely perform better than a 12g slug against a big, mean target. 12 gauge with the right shot has excellent first shot hit probability with less overpenetration than most rifles. Ideal house gun. Great around the chicken coop.

I really don't see it as an either/or sort of thing. It's a which one for this role thing.

[Buzduk]

This conversation is a little confusing. Are we talking about 12g vs 45-70 for defense against body armored fellons, or against bears? Do you hike trails that have both? Maybe you need to find some different trails.

IMO, you should keep the shotgun and get a 45-70. They are so different from each other that you should have both. A guide gun will likely perform better than a 12g slug against a big, mean target. 12 gauge with the right shot has excellent first shot hit probability with less overpenetration than most rifles. Ideal house gun. Great around the chicken coop.

I really don't see it as an either/or sort of thing. It's a which one for this role thing.

+1 If I were to be surprised at close range I would want a shotgun with buck/slugs. If I was hunting bear the 45/70 would def be my pref. On the whole vest thing, any loads that I would use for bear hunting with 45/70 would punish a mofo in a vest! Sledgehammers and 460gr hunters are just plain abusive! Cilck, flinch I love AR's and they are a great platform but in room "engaugements" Would grab my m1super90 every time!

BTW bird shot up close is horrific!

[Gibal]

+1 If I were to be surprised at close range I would want a shotgun with buck/slugs. If I was hunting bear the 45/70 would def be my pref. On the whole vest thing, any loads that I would use for bear hunting with 45/70 would punish a mofo in a vest! Sledgehammers and 460gr hunters are just plain abusive! Cilck, flinch I love AR's and they are a great platform but in room "engaugements" Would grab my m1super90 every time!
BTW bird shot up close is horrific!

You don't even need the 460's, a hot-ish 405 gr. load is painful. Click, flinch is right I think a .375 H&H is softer.

[Buzduk]

+1 If I were to be surprised at close range I would want a shotgun with buck/slugs. If I was hunting bear the 45/70 would def be my pref. On the whole vest thing, any loads that I would use for bear hunting with 45/70 would punish a mofo in a vest! Sledgehammers and 460gr hunters are just plain abusive! Cilck, flinch I love AR's and they are a great platform but in room "engaugements" Would grab my m1super90 every time!
BTW bird shot up close is horrific!

You don't even need the 460's, a hot-ish 405 gr. load is painful. Click, flinch is right I think a .375 H&H is softer.

I love to shoot the guide gun and can all day with reg loads but the hot loads damn! its always great to load up light loads followed by a nasty when someone wants to shoot it. he he

[TheCowboyofKhaos]

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570.html

Look at the animals taken with that ammo. I use there 310gr 44mag ammo and it is awesome.