gunrange issue

General silencer discussion. If you want to talk about a specific silenced rifle or pistol, it is best to do that in the rifle or pistol section for that brand.

All NFA laws apply.

Moderators: mpallett, bakerjw, renegade

ericlw
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:33 pm

gunrange issue

Post by ericlw » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:14 pm

So my coworker found out i own a silencer and wanted to go shoot it.He suggested a gun range ive never been to before.So we went this morning everything is cool and we are having fun.while im shooting one of the guys from the counter came up and tapped me on the shoulder. he said he needed to see my paper work for my silencer. I asked him under what authority. he said the range could lose their licens for not checking to make sure it was legal.so i proced to let the guy look at all my stuff. He walks off and go back to shooting.

About 5 minutes later he came back and said i had to come outside with him. the dude had called the police on me because he didnt think silencers were legal and it was registered under my trust and not to my name specifically.Their was litterally 5 cops standing in the lobby and waiting to talk to me. the police looked over my paper work and said they didnt see anything illegal and asked me what happened.they even wanted to know why they were even called and said the range owner was wasting their time over an opinion.

What i would like to know other then just leaving; who can legally require me to show my paperwork? I dont think im required to show some gun range any paperwork. They arent checking to make sure its legal for people to own a gun firing on there range so I dont see a huge difference.out of all the times ive taken it to the range ive never had anyone even question me about it.usually people want to try it out instead of give me a hard time over it.

i told them i would never be back and make sure to post my experience about his attitude.

User avatar
ariwhiteboy
Silent Operator
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:16 am
Location: Savannah, GA (Kinda)

Re: gunrange issue

Post by ariwhiteboy » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:44 pm

Holy crap man, that's BS.


First off AFAIK (with my limited research on the topic) I would think that the gun range guy was within the letter of the law to ask for your paperwork. I mean I think that he was being legit as far as it being a liability thing at the range. (I'd imagine the consequences of someone having an "incident" with a full auto at a range would be no bueno.)

Still, he handled it like a D***head. I'm glad the cops were cool, but I still hate that happened to you. I do most of my shooting on private land or when I want an actual "range", a DNR one. I had a friend with a suppressed Ruger 10/22 and when we were out shooting the DNR Ranger came up, waited until we'd finished firing, then engaged us in friendly conversation. Somewhere along the lines he asked to see the paperwork, which my friend provided. After some more talk, the Ranger asked if he could have a turn, which we gladly offered. After that he went on his way and we enjoyed the rest of our day.



I would definitely spread the word far and wide among other shooters that the staff at said range is less than friendly. Maybe a nice letter to the manager would net you an apology and some free range time. Best of luck finding another shooting locale.
It is a very sad man who requires his opinions to be validated by those around him.

SWR Spectre II (Pending)

User avatar
ATCDoktor
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 680
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:50 pm

Re: gunrange issue

Post by ATCDoktor » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:00 pm

What i would like to know other then just leaving; who can legally require me to show my paperwork?
Any LEO can require you to show your paperwork to determine whether your NFA item is properly registered.

Whether or not your show your paperwork to persons outside Law Enforcement is up to you; however, if range personnel request to see it and you refuse you will most likely be asked to leave and have the Law called on you as well.

You can listen to all the internet wizards that say you only have to produce your paperwork to ATF personnel (per written instructions on your Form 4) but F--k around and get a hard head with any LEO requesting it and your NFA items will be temporarily seized and you will be detained until it's been determined that your not a prohibited possessor and the weapon is properly registered.

When I re-read your post, it sounds to me like you were being a bit of a cunt to the cat in the range when he asked to see your paperwork. He took offense and figured he'd F--k you right back and called the cops.

Trevor2011
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:46 am
Location: Kentucky

Re: gunrange issue

Post by Trevor2011 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:11 pm

If I shoot at a public range it's one that hosts a huge mg shoot twice a year and the first time I showed up with my suppressor I asked if they wanted to see my paperwork. They basically told me they didn't want to see it. That if I was caught with something that wasn't properly registered it was on me not them. I love people that mind their own business :)

User avatar
JohnnyC
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2892
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:31 am
Location: AZ
Contact:

Re: gunrange issue

Post by JohnnyC » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:45 pm

ATCDoktor wrote:
What i would like to know other then just leaving; who can legally require me to show my paperwork?
Any LEO can require you to show your paperwork to determine whether your NFA item is properly registered.WRONG

Whether or not your show your paperwork to persons outside Law Enforcement is up to you; however, if range personnel request to see it and you refuse you will most likely be asked to leave and have the Law called on you as well.

You can listen to all the internet wizards that say you only have to produce your paperwork to ATF personnel (per written instructions on your Form 4) but F--k around and get a hard head with any LEO requesting it and your NFA items will be temporarily seized and you will be detained until it's been determined that your not a prohibited possessor and the weapon is properly registered. The "internet wizards" aren't lying. The legal requirement is only to the ATF. Why you would lie to someone I'm not sure, as clearly you know that what you are saying regarding it is untrue.

When I re-read your post, it sounds to me like you were being a bit of a cunt to the cat in the range when he asked to see your paperwork. He took offense and figured he'd F--k you right back and called the cops.
ONLY ATF personnel can request to see your forms, they're private tax forms. You're right about a hard-headed LEO being a dick, but be truthful.

As far as the range staff, there's no legal requirement to do any of that, but if you refuse they're completely within their rights to ask you to leave.

rockman96
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 997
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 5:49 am

Re: gunrange issue

Post by rockman96 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:59 pm

IMO, it's ignorant to not comply with an LEO, a range owner, etc if they want to see proof of legality. If you're in their house, let 'em see it. It only takes a minute. There is still a lot of stigma out there on NFA stuff, you'd be surprised. The worst that can happen is they still don't like it and you leave. The best that can happen is you educate someone and open more doors to hassle free experiences. Hell, let them try it out for themselves! To get confrontational is asking for hassles. Try to put off a curious LEO... I promise you they will NOT leave you alone. You may not go to jail, but you'll most likely have shot down your afternoon and no one is happy.

Bottom line: If you don't want to ever have to prove anything to anyone, don't go where Joe Public is with your s--t.

yamatitan
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1245
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:00 am
Location: Louisiana

Re: gunrange issue

Post by yamatitan » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:07 pm

IMO you did the right thing! I wouldnt have showed the range guy but would the LEO they can make your life harder than it needs to be if not. Oh yea and screw that range!

User avatar
ATCDoktor
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 680
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:50 pm

Re: gunrange issue

Post by ATCDoktor » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:24 pm

Any LEO can require you to show your paperwork to determine whether your NFA item is properly registered.WRONG
I assure you that if an LEO requests to see your forms reference an NFA item in your possession he will see them sooner or later.
The "internet wizards" aren't lying. The legal requirement is only to the ATF. Why you would lie to someone I'm not sure, as clearly you know that what you are saying regarding it is untrue.
What in the F--k are you saying here??

Are you saying that the blurb on the Form 4 that states:
Proof of Registration: This aproved application is the registrant's proof of registration and it shall be made availble to any ATF officer upon request.
means you only have to show it to an ATF Officer (to the exclusion of all other LEO's)?

F--k me dude, for 60 years these things HAD to be sighted and signed by the CHIEF Law Enforcement Officer of the county you lived in to get them approved.

Trusts have only been approved for transfers (en masse) here in the last 10 years and ATF is now closing the loop on these.

Holy s--t dude, here in the near future there will be the requirement that a copy of these "Tax" forms be sent to the CLEO in your county just so you can process a transfer on a trust.

Soon your Sherrif or CLEO will have the availability to keep a copy of these "Tax" forms on file.

The only information on these "Tax" forms that isn't on your drivers license is serial number of the weapon.

You can talk all the nonsense you want about how the aforementioned "blurb" excludes LEO's other than ATF Officers but you are mistaken.

Badly.

Especially in jurisdictions where registration is an "affirmative defense" to prosecution

User avatar
doubloon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 11901
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:02 am
Location: Houston-ish

Re: gunrange issue

Post by doubloon » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:26 pm

Anyone can request to see your forms.

You can refuse that request from anyone who asks, even the ATF if you have some point to prove. You are more than welcome to fight the legality of the NFA all the way to SCOTUS and I will donate to your cause.

Who you do or do not show them to after such a request determines the length and the bumpiness of the ride.

In Texas NFA are prohibited weapons so even though I don't necessarily like the idea of anyone asking to see my forms every citizen out there is perfectly within their legal rights, maybe even their civic duty, to report the sighting of a prohibited weapon just as much as if they didn't know you from Adam and reported seeing you climb in through your own broken bedroom window. In both cases the local LEO is required to respond and how they respond once they get the full story is a roll of the dice.

In both cases if a citizen (non-authority) asked you to show some proof of what you're doing is legal you would be perfectly within your rights to tell him to F--- off. In any situation where a citizen who may be inclined to report my "suspicious" activity were to ask me if I could offer some proof of the legality of my activity I would welcome the opportunity to set aside his fears or at least avoid any escalation he may have in mind.

Personally, I think you lucked out. The responding LEO could easily have decided to try to make the trip worth their time and ruined more of your day.

ETA: FWIW I choose not to patronize establishments that request to see my papers. But there are very few public ranges I go to who do not ask at some point if I have my papers and a simple answer of "yes" usually ends the conversation unless they want to know more about the item that caught their attention.
Last edited by doubloon on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

rjacobs
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:53 am

Re: gunrange issue

Post by rjacobs » Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:21 pm

There is a local range to me that requires you to give them a copy of your tax stamp for them to keep on file if you want to shoot NFA stuff on their range. Uh fucka no. Nobody I know shoots NFA stuff at their range. Nobody that I know shoots at that range anyway with their $20 an hour price tag.

User avatar
doubloon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 11901
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:02 am
Location: Houston-ish

Re: gunrange issue

Post by doubloon » Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:23 pm

rjacobs wrote:... give them a copy ...
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

ericlw
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:33 pm

Re: gunrange issue

Post by ericlw » Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:43 pm

well basically i will never goto that range again for any reason.i will goto the other ranges i goto often that dont even check to see what your going to shoot.

the police officer glaced at my paperwork.he didnt even compare the serial number on my supressor vs my paperwork.

User avatar
silencertalk
Site Admin
Posts: 33985
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:31 am
Location: USA

Re: gunrange issue

Post by silencertalk » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:03 pm

The range can certainly ask because it is private property and they can kick you out for refusing.

Please name the range - they should be boycotted for calling the police on a customer.

User avatar
continuity
Elite Member
Posts: 4554
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:39 am
Location: Ohio

Re: gunrange issue

Post by continuity » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:04 pm

Ohio LEO perspective.

From a Federal perspective, one is only obligated to show NFA tax transfer documents to ATF representatives.

HOWEVER... in Ohio, and all other states I'm aware of, NFA items are regulated contraband, and are legally possessed only if done so in compliance with Federal procedure(s). The immediate proof to a regional LEO that an NFA item is "legally" possessed within that jurisdiction... is that documentation (approved, stamped paperwork if you will). In Ohio, even if a NFA item is an approved tax transfer item, the lack of having said documentation on, about, or in proximity to, the subject items possessor, is a separate charge all on it's own.

If one is unable to show proof of legal NFA item possession to local LEO at the point of contact, most likely you will be arrested and enjoy the experience of adjudication visa vie our cool justice system. Personally, I will go to great lengths to help a possessor establish valid transfer status for a NFA item, should that contact be made. If it's a lack of paperwork presence, but validity is established, you're good to go with an educational warning relative having documentation on or about. Hard copy, digital presentation, what ever. If all one can come up with though, is a note from mom, guarantee a free ride in a cruiser.

A private facility representative can ask to see documentation, and if one declines to do so, can be legally ejected from that facility.

And that's the way it is brotha.
What amount of a man is composed of his own collection of experiences... and the conclusions that those experiences have allowed him to "know" for certain as "Truth"? :Ick

rockman96
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 997
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 5:49 am

Re: gunrange issue

Post by rockman96 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:16 pm

Again, the bottom line is: If you don't want to ever have to prove anything to anyone, don't go where Joe Public or John Law is, with your s--t in tow. Keep at at your own personal Back-40.

Personally, I don't have an issue with showing my documents. I keep all my forms in a 1" binder that goes with me where ever I take any of my s--t, so no matter what I have with me I'm covered. It's not a big deal.

User avatar
ATCDoktor
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 680
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:50 pm

Re: gunrange issue

Post by ATCDoktor » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:28 pm

HOWEVER... in Ohio, and all other states I'm aware of, NFA items are regulated contraband, and are legally possessed only if done so in compliance with Federal procedure(s). The immediate proof to a regional LEO that an NFA item is "legally" possessed within that jurisdiction... is that documentation (approved, stamped paperwork if you will). In Ohio, even if a NFA item is an approved tax transfer item, the lack of having said documentation on, about, or in proximity to, the subject items possessor, is a separate charge all on it's own.

If one is unable to show proof of legal NFA item possession to local LEO at the point of contact, most likely you will be arrested and enjoy the experience of adjudication visa vie our cool justice system. Personally, I will go to great lengths to help a possessor establish valid transfer status for a NFA item, should that contact be made. If it's a lack of paperwork presence, but validity is established, you're good to go with an educational warning relative having documentation on or about. Hard copy, digital presentation, what ever. If all one can come up with though, is a note from mom, guarantee a free ride in a cruiser.
Quoted for Motherfucking Truth.

I have done that dance and it aint pleasant.

Didn't refuse to show them, fucked around and didn't have them (left at home) and I was two states away from them (my forms) on a hunting trip and it was a holiday weekend, NFA Branch closed.

It was ugly as F--k.

User avatar
continuity
Elite Member
Posts: 4554
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:39 am
Location: Ohio

Re: gunrange issue

Post by continuity » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:48 pm

ATCDoktor wrote:...
Didn't refuse to show them, fucked around and didn't have them (left at home) and I was two states away from them (my forms) on a hunting trip and it was a holiday weekend, NFA Branch closed.

It was ugly as F--k.
Guessing you weren't offered the option of having a scanned copy of your form x emailed to the point of contact LEO's cruiser MTD.

Yeah, feel ya bro. That binder I keep with me when I'm off duty and out and about with my stuff, is cheap insurance. Should I be stopped by OSP it's a bet those galactic chip implanted centurions of the ORC would hook me up in a heartbeat, (and transport me to my own offices jail) if I didn't have the correct documentation "on or about my person".
What amount of a man is composed of his own collection of experiences... and the conclusions that those experiences have allowed him to "know" for certain as "Truth"? :Ick

User avatar
ATCDoktor
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 680
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:50 pm

Re: gunrange issue

Post by ATCDoktor » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:54 pm

Guessing you weren't offered the option of having a scanned copy of your form x emailed to the point of contact LEO's cruiser MTD.
No way to get the paperwork to somebody to administrate anything like that.

I live alone, house was locked up tight, alarm set, forms (and copies) locked in my safe.

Suffice to say that nowadays I've got so many copies of that stuff on or near me (at all times whether or not I'm in possession of NFA items) that it won't happen again.

User avatar
strobro32
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1374
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:18 pm

Re: gunrange issue

Post by strobro32 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:00 pm

His house, his rules. Don't like it, go elsewhere. Just know that if you refuse and leave, red and blue lights will appear in your rear view mirror.

Be courteous to the house. Share your knowledge. Be an ambassador for your hobby.
Last edited by strobro32 on Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
If it doesn't splatter, shatter, burst or explode, it's not worth shooting.

fastfire
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:19 pm
Location: I-D-HO

Re: gunrange issue

Post by fastfire » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:02 pm

I have 2 suppressors and was told by a friend thas has many NFA items that he downsizes his paperwork to 3"x4" has it lamanated and that's ok.
Or does one need to keep a full sized copy :?:

rjacobs
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:53 am

Re: gunrange issue

Post by rjacobs » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:15 pm

fastfire wrote:I have 2 suppressors and was told by a friend thas has many NFA items that he downsizes his paperwork to 3"x4" has it lamanated and that's ok.
Or does one need to keep a full sized copy :?:
I shrink mine down by 25% and keep them in the grip of my SBR. There was a debate on here a while ago about shrinking any document down more than 50% and it still being "legal". I have shown mine to 2 LEO's and nobody said a word. At 25% just make sure you have a good printer that is still legible that small.

DarkPhoenix
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:24 pm
Location: Sc

Re: gunrange issue

Post by DarkPhoenix » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:30 pm

I keep full size copies in a binder in my range bag. That way I am always good to go.

SRM
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1825
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:20 pm
Location: wyoming

Re: gunrange issue

Post by SRM » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:06 pm

continuity wrote:Ohio LEO perspective.

From a Federal perspective, one is only obligated to show NFA tax transfer documents to ATF representatives.

HOWEVER... in Ohio, and all other states I'm aware of, NFA items are regulated contraband, and are legally possessed only if done so in compliance with Federal procedure(s). The immediate proof to a regional LEO that an NFA item is "legally" possessed within that jurisdiction... is that documentation (approved, stamped paperwork if you will). In Ohio, even if a NFA item is an approved tax transfer item, the lack of having said documentation on, about, or in proximity to, the subject items possessor, is a separate charge all on it's own.

If one is unable to show proof of legal NFA item possession to local LEO at the point of contact, most likely you will be arrested and enjoy the experience of adjudication visa vie our cool justice system. Personally, I will go to great lengths to help a possessor establish valid transfer status for a NFA item, should that contact be made. If it's a lack of paperwork presence, but validity is established, you're good to go with an educational warning relative having documentation on or about. Hard copy, digital presentation, what ever. If all one can come up with though, is a note from mom, guarantee a free ride in a cruiser.

A private facility representative can ask to see documentation, and if one declines to do so, can be legally ejected from that facility.

And that's the way it is brotha.
Sounds good to me. If it were my range, I would not want illegal stuff on the property. If you know its not legal, Dont make it public knowledge.

User avatar
silencertalk
Site Admin
Posts: 33985
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:31 am
Location: USA

Re: gunrange issue

Post by silencertalk » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:48 pm

I am in MA, see LE often, and none have ever asked me for paperwork, even though silencers are illegal unless you are a licensed manufacturer.

I should probably scan all of my forms and keep a PDF on my iPhone. That is a project just to make that happen.

Historian
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 3323
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: gunrange issue

Post by Historian » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:10 pm

silencertalk wrote:I am in MA, see LE often, and none have ever asked me for paperwork, even though silencers are illegal unless you are a licensed manufacturer.

I should probably scan all of my forms and keep a PDF on my iPhone. That is a project just to make that happen.
It is interesting that in MA you are allowed to get 'tickets' to possess automatic weapons but not for a silencer.
Is a can considered a high capacity assault weapon? :) :)

Hey, perhaps folks can register as Cherokees just as Granny Warren did and then petition/incentivize
with contributions the Legislators to update the law for the environment and hearing safety.

Post Reply