Our Gemtech G5 failed at 750 rounds.
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- kalikraven
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- GlockandRoll
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im no expert nor do i play one on tv, but the fact of the matter is
roll pins holding things together (wtf?)
inconel "donut" at blast baffle help in by- wait for it- roll pins
baffle stack not wleded together
end cap(s) welded around 25% or the circumfrance and not structurally welded
hole in side of can for what reason?
yeah its great that gemtech has great customer service but really, id rather have an all welded can and never have to use customer service.
over at ar.com they are raggin on r.s. that he did full auto straight thru and r.s. gave us a description of how he shot this, and it was not full auto all the way.
roll pins holding things together (wtf?)
inconel "donut" at blast baffle help in by- wait for it- roll pins
baffle stack not wleded together
end cap(s) welded around 25% or the circumfrance and not structurally welded
hole in side of can for what reason?
yeah its great that gemtech has great customer service but really, id rather have an all welded can and never have to use customer service.
over at ar.com they are raggin on r.s. that he did full auto straight thru and r.s. gave us a description of how he shot this, and it was not full auto all the way.
As mongo mentioned earlier:TaylorWSO wrote: I agree that the pins are a stupid idea, but my point, which you and others have missed, is that while this ONE can failed, it could or could not represent the quality of the rest of the cans. I think people are jumping on board bashing Gemtech when they don't know anything about stats or probabilities. This could very well represent all the cans gemtech puts out, but we would need to know a lot more info to judge the entire production lot. I'm pretty sure gemtech is not going to release the number of cans produced. Since its is a newer design there can't be many and we haven't seen (yet) another can get destroyed.
If someone destroyed a AAC can because of a faulty weld that got out, would you call ALL their cans s--t? I certainly wouldn't. If I heard 2 or more that did the same thing, I would start to wonder.
That's a lot more than a simple missing weld or weld failure. If the GemTech can suffered from any one (and ONLY one) of those problems, it would be much easier to give them the benefit of the doubt. But that's a lot of problems with that one can. If AAC sold a can that was tested and failed because of weld failure, poor metallurgy, and bad design decisions, a lot of people would be justified in complaining about the company based on the multiple modes of failure in a single specimen. But it's not an AAC product that failed this way. Indeed, six units survived a somewhat more rigorous version of the test.How can a spacer make the roll pins fail, the "welds" in the baffle stack disappear, bulge the can and crack and destroy the Inconel blast "baffle" with out having one baffle strike or end cap strike?
- Kevin/AAC
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Well, I think that I have a better idea...You come to Atlanta and I will pay for your hotel room. We can do your testing of the M4-1000 against the G5. I will provide both silencers. Robert will take the pictures and video. You can load the mags and do all of the shooting. You only have to write a complete, accurate synopsis of everything that happens.CAR-15 wrote:How about you provide me a M4-1000 and I will try the same test you did on the G-5 and post the results. I offered this to Robert a while back and he didn't go for it.Kevin/AAC wrote:CAR-15 wrote:I am only skeptical due to the fact that there were no pictures of the mount there assmunch. Furthermore I said that I didn't know if it would make any difference.
It's always a pissing contest on this fucking board. I just want to see the mount setup.
A third party test would be awesome. If you are willing to buy the silencer, video the test, and post it...I will give you the ammo.
Let me know.
I will pay the tax stamp and provide the ammo. I get to keep the can no matter what.
Let me know.
- Devil_Dawg
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- Kevin/AAC
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Yes, they have stated that all of their rifle cans are welded, including the G5. Obviously, the G5 is not welded anywhere...including "...Just where its needed."TaylorWSO wrote:Did gemtech ever say they weld the "core"? The last I heard they said they weld the cans but not exactly where they place the welds. "Just where its needed"
Why is everyone getting hung up on ONE can. I have AAC products and gemtech products. I enjoy/use them both, it seems robert/kevin have been waiting for this to happen for a long time and they are making the most of it. I do not like the design, hence I got a HALO, but still it's ONE can.
Lastly are the AAC "caps" threaded then welded or just welded?
You are correct, the HALO is a superior mount than the Bi-Lock. The HALO mount was designed by LEI in England.
Most of our silencers are "just" welded, but several are both threaded and welded.
- Kevin/AAC
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This does not represent FAULTY weld quality or product quality, it simply demonstrates NO welding- which I think translates into bad quality for a rifle silencer, but you can decide for yourself. This is simply a test that we performed to verify the G5's durability after Kel and Phil from Gemtech stated that the silencer is welded for durability. We can certainly duplicate this test, if anyone wants to provide the G5...I am willing to give someone a M4-2000 Mod 07, if they do.TaylorWSO wrote:
I agree that the pins are a stupid idea, but my point, which you and others have missed, is that while this ONE can failed, it could or could not represent the quality of the rest of the cans. I think people are jumping on board bashing Gemtech when they don't know anything about stats or probabilities. This could very well represent all the cans gemtech puts out, but we would need to know a lot more info to judge the entire production lot. I'm pretty sure gemtech is not going to release the number of cans produced. Since its is a newer design there can't be many and we haven't seen (yet) another can get destroyed.
If someone destroyed a AAC can because of a faulty weld that got out, would you call ALL their cans s--t? I certainly wouldn't. If I heard 2 or more that did the same thing, I would start to wonder.
So is this invitation open to anybody? Hell, I'll scream up and down that AAC are heathen devils if it gets me the chance to go to Georgia and do this!Kevin/AAC wrote: Well, I think that I have a better idea...You come to Atlanta and I will pay for your hotel room. We can do your testing of the M4-1000 against the G5. I will provide both silencers. Robert will take the pictures and video. You can load the mags and do all of the shooting. You only have to write a complete, accurate synopsis of everything that happens.
Let me know.
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Unfortunately, I won't be able to make it down to GA anytime soon. Anyone else who is interested could stand in my place. I'm sure there won't be any shortage of volunteers!!
Too bad about you not wanting to do photos or video, as a direct, head-to-head comparison would be great.
Let me also state that I don't think it would change anything, and as I said in my original post on ARFCOM, I would just like to see how it was mounted up. That is all.
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Too bad about you not wanting to do photos or video, as a direct, head-to-head comparison would be great.
Let me also state that I don't think it would change anything, and as I said in my original post on ARFCOM, I would just like to see how it was mounted up. That is all.
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mfingar posted:
I don't know of any M4-2000 ruptured video. M4-2000s have been tested to destruction, but this current test is not a destructive test. It is just an endurance test one which all six AAC cans tested had survived.
This would be like a long road race of which only a few cars managed to survive, and they were all one or two brands. The race would not be designed to destroy the cars -- it would just be a tough race scenario that only the best cars could handle.
If an AAC can did fail a reasonable endurance test, such as this, we would look into why and make changes to the product.
It is the first I have heard of also. However, it is the same basic construction as the M4-96D, and I have heard of this kind of problem with that. I would think a military organization would not even test the G5 because it has not been upgraded in engineering enough from the ones which have been tested in the past.G5's are out there, all over the world. In the hands of the warfighter. This thread is the first instance of a G5 problem I've heard of.
I saw a video of a ruptured AAC can (M42000), but can't seem to find it now. Am I to assume all M42000's blow up from that one incident? The answer is no....(wonder what happened to that video )
I don't know of any M4-2000 ruptured video. M4-2000s have been tested to destruction, but this current test is not a destructive test. It is just an endurance test one which all six AAC cans tested had survived.
This would be like a long road race of which only a few cars managed to survive, and they were all one or two brands. The race would not be designed to destroy the cars -- it would just be a tough race scenario that only the best cars could handle.
If an AAC can did fail a reasonable endurance test, such as this, we would look into why and make changes to the product.
Kevin, if Robert won't take photos because he feels like it's a waste of time, I'll volunteer to take his place. Got quite a bit of experience (the degree doesn't really mean s--t) and I'd love to fill in anytime he can't make it. And if the G5 wasn't so G-D expensive I'd take you up on the offer to swap for an M4-2000. But being it's cheaper just to buy one straight up, I'd be surprised if you had any takers.
A very emotional subject.
I only have one thing to say.
I know Robert has been a long time proponent of testing silencers on the same day, under the same conditions. I only wish his philosophy had entended to this test as well.
Two blind tested cans, one from Gemtech and one from AAC.
Same batch of Ammo, same Rifle, same Day.
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
I only have one thing to say.
I know Robert has been a long time proponent of testing silencers on the same day, under the same conditions. I only wish his philosophy had entended to this test as well.
Two blind tested cans, one from Gemtech and one from AAC.
Same batch of Ammo, same Rifle, same Day.
The test was a reasonable military test. The GemTech can in question failed. PERIOD
There are several things about this suppressor that are not up to the standards expected for a can advertised and sold the way the GemTech G5 is.
There is no reason for me to think repeating the test has any merit. Does anyone really expect a second test to come out differently? Claims were made, claims were tested, and the claims didn't hold up.
This line of discussion isn't a whole lot different from the SRT saga. Tiny blue flame or not, salesmanship and marketing didn't match reality. I respect PhD and GemTech as much as anyone but, the reality is this can failed due to manufacturing choices that were WRONG for stated use of this suppressor.
There are several things about this suppressor that are not up to the standards expected for a can advertised and sold the way the GemTech G5 is.
There is no reason for me to think repeating the test has any merit. Does anyone really expect a second test to come out differently? Claims were made, claims were tested, and the claims didn't hold up.
This line of discussion isn't a whole lot different from the SRT saga. Tiny blue flame or not, salesmanship and marketing didn't match reality. I respect PhD and GemTech as much as anyone but, the reality is this can failed due to manufacturing choices that were WRONG for stated use of this suppressor.
There is only one valid quesion to be asked and answered at this point.
Was this specific can a manufacturing QC flaw or is it exactly as Gemtech decided to build them in general?
Without that answer the only valid discussion points are general design items like the mount and use of roll pins, exotic metals, inserts, etc.
Was this specific can a manufacturing QC flaw or is it exactly as Gemtech decided to build them in general?
Without that answer the only valid discussion points are general design items like the mount and use of roll pins, exotic metals, inserts, etc.
I call BS on the video such video does not exist but anyone can destroy an M42000 can .An M42000 can blow up/rupture whatever as you can design a test too rupture any can but I guarantee you the M42000 will withstand the test RSilvers did too the G5 .rsilvers wrote:mfingar posted:
It is the first I have heard of also. However, it is the same basic construction as the M4-96D, and I have heard of this kind of problem with that. I would think a military organization would not even test the G5 because it has not been upgraded in engineering enough from the ones which have been tested in the past.G5's are out there, all over the world. In the hands of the warfighter. This thread is the first instance of a G5 problem I've heard of.
I saw a video of a ruptured AAC can (M42000), but can't seem to find it now. Am I to assume all M42000's blow up from that one incident? The answer is no....(wonder what happened to that video )
I don't know of any M4-2000 ruptured video. M4-2000s have been tested to destruction, but this current test is not a destructive test. It is just an endurance test one which all six AAC cans tested had survived.
This would be like a long road race of which only a few cars managed to survive, and they were all one or two brands. The race would not be designed to destroy the cars -- it would just be a tough race scenario that only the best cars could handle.
If an AAC can did fail a reasonable endurance test, such as this, we would look into why and make changes to the product.
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
No, I get that.Davo5o wrote:Dude, it's a standard mil test, get over it!
But when AAC submited their 6 cans or whatever to the military, they (AAC) new ahead of time those cans were in for some heavy abuse. They picked/delivered those cans with that knowledge.
Here, a G5 can was basically bought from a dealer.
Somehow, it just doesn't QUITE seem the same...
That is why, I was saying it would have been nice to seem them tested Side BY Side.
I kind of agree with you. But one fact is AAC is welding all their cans via that awesome CNC robot no coffee break whiz bang welder.mk23 wrote:No, I get that.Davo5o wrote:Dude, it's a standard mil test, get over it!
But when AAC submited their 6 cans or whatever to the military, they (AAC) new ahead of time those cans were in for some heavy abuse. They picked/delivered those cans with that knowledge.
Here, a G5 can was basically bought from a dealer.
Somehow, it just doesn't QUITE seem the same...
That is why, I was saying it would have been nice to seem them tested Side BY Side.
If any silencer will hold up to that test, AAC would. But what would more interesting is: would Gemtech knowingly throw a G5 into that test
![Question :?:](./images/smilies/icon_question.gif)
What's depressing me more than the failure is the fact that Gemtech has
not been truthful on the welding facts. I had assumed there was welding inside the can, be it baffles, cores, caps, whatever, does'nt fucking matter now because there is zero welds inside a G5 and I bought one from a Gemtech dealer in Columbus, Ohio back in May, still pending, based on Gemtechs statement that there is welds internal to a G5.
All this stuff started when AAC bought the CNC welder and potential buyers started calling suppressor makers (Gemtech) and asking questions. Gemtech has replied yes to internal welds, well so much for that.
Why fucking lie about it?
not been truthful on the welding facts. I had assumed there was welding inside the can, be it baffles, cores, caps, whatever, does'nt fucking matter now because there is zero welds inside a G5 and I bought one from a Gemtech dealer in Columbus, Ohio back in May, still pending, based on Gemtechs statement that there is welds internal to a G5.
All this stuff started when AAC bought the CNC welder and potential buyers started calling suppressor makers (Gemtech) and asking questions. Gemtech has replied yes to internal welds, well so much for that.
Why fucking lie about it?