Our Gemtech G5 failed at 750 rounds.

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Post by renegade » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:26 pm

GaLEO wrote:I actually participated in this tests. I shot the first 8 mags thru the can.
What was rate of fire? 1 shot per second for the semis, full dumps for the full-auto ones? How long to fire 8 mags?

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Post by 3101 » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:30 pm

didn't time it.....1 round per second, reload, mag dump....I had to clear several FTE's during the shooting, so did RS....so it wasn't a steady bang bang bang....the extractor spring in the 416 we used needs to be replaced..

It was slower than the .mil test due to the clearing drills..
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Post by silencertalk » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:34 pm

I tried to keep the cadence that the military subjected our cans to (2 shots per second). I was not able to because of extracting problems in this 416, so the Gemtech had it easy by comparison often with long delays while we cleared the rifle.
Last edited by silencertalk on Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by 3101 » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:36 pm

rsilvers wrote:I tried to keep the cadence that the military subjected our cans to. I was not able to because of extracting problems in this 416, so the Gemtech had it easy by comparison.
+1 especially on the mag dumps..there were very few "real" mag dumps...most attempts suffered at least one FTE, most suffered two...
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Post by renegade » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:55 pm

GaLEO wrote:didn't time it.....1 round per second, reload, mag dump....I had to clear several FTE's during the shooting, so did RS....so it wasn't a steady bang bang bang....the extractor spring in the 416 we used needs to be replaced..

It was slower than the .mil test due to the clearing drills..
Close enough info to what I was asking. thanks.

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Post by tmix » Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:15 pm

Mongo wrote:[I have not posted a response like this about any competitors suppressor but I do think Gemtech has mislead people on the G%. Saying it has a inconel blast baffle is vastly different than a inconel collar on the first baffle. As a Gemtech can owner I now have concerns about my M4-96D. Luckily having worked with AAC on the M4-2007 I get one as part of my compensation so I will relegate the M4-96D to my AR that sits in the back of the safe unused.
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Post by cyclone72 » Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:18 pm

It would be an interesting paper weight.

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Post by delta9mda » Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:21 pm

can we see the baffles please?

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Post by 3101 » Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:23 pm

they are posted in one of these threads......I saw them earlier..
look on page one of this thread...
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Post by Mongo » Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:56 pm

Repost after Robert accidentally deleted my post
This post from KEL @ GEMTECH should be in this thread too:

perhaps I can offer some commentary that might answer it. If I cross the line in answering this question and it becomes too much of a plug, moderators, feel free to delete my response here with no hard feelings... That said - Like most things in life, there are ups and downs, two sides to an issue. Fully welding cans has both merits and drawbacks. Fixing a simple baffle strike? Gotta cut apart and gut the whole can in many instances (we won't go into a tangent of whether or not it's illegal to replace the exterior tube). A fast turn around time / sub-hundred dollar repair job for a struck G5 endcap compares how to a probably-not-warranty-work complete $$$ gutting and $$$ rebuild of some fully welded cans? It's not a problem to repair a modular suppressor like the G5 is. That's good, because if they all perform like this one then.... And, regardless of what some might have you believe, Gemtech DOES weld many parts of our suppressors - just because there aren't gobs of weld seams and marks all over your can doesn't mean it doesn't utilize welding where it's needed. You know I don't remember seeing one structural weld in any of those pictures. Maybe Gemtech needs to start thinking about more "gobs" of welds.

Like you commented, I'm curious about about baffle welding [being touted] for added durability too. Welding alone isn't where the Gemtech units get their strength from. The G5 has a core suppressor of inconel, stainless, and titanium, and this "suppressor within a suppressor" is redundantly encased into a high grade stainless exterior shell with hydraulic torquing into place. A note here concerning material: Gemtech often purchases what's called "mill runs" or large custom-made runs of unique tubing to obtain the qualities we're looking for. (As a for-instance, even the economical little Outback is constructed with mill runs of 7075 tubing - the same stuff ARs are made out of - while smaller manufacturers will use 6000 series aluminum. Why would they do that? Because it's cheap, off-the-shelf-available in small quantities. And hey - I'm certain it's probably good enough - we just go the extra mile in various areas. The high-grade stuff is not a size commercially available from most raw metal tubing suppliers. We could cheap out too, but it's not as strong as we wanted, so we have to buy custom runs - tons of the good stuff - to make your Outback suppressors the best value out there.)

The point of that particular subject-matter veer: If you're listening to someone that says that our cans are corner-cutting or weak, I'd suggest pondering a bit about the above sorts of business decisions we make here. Our guys have been making, servicing, supporting, and shooting suppressors for decades, and generally what we do and how we do it is for good reasons. Selah!

Forgive the tangent.

The G5's double-wall construction and material choices makes for a very strong unit. In all the time I've been in the suppressor business, I can't recall ever having seen a Gemtech G5, M496D, HVT, or TPRS "blow out" or rupture a tube. I have, however most certainly, seen a not-insignificant number of guys messing around with trying to make subsonic handloads, mounting their suppressors cockeyed, shooting highly questionable mil-surp ammo that has ended in routine clipped endcaps, baffle strikes, etc.

Simply stated: You put enough ammo downrange for years on end, you *will* experience a squib, or a double charge, or some sort of ammo-induced problem. In the three million-plus rounds I've obtained to be sent into berms, baffletraps, and bodies, I have observed ammo from most every major ammunition manufacturer simply have a bad day. Point being? One day, no matter who's suppressor you buy, you might just clip an endcap. It might be prudent to ask your manufacturer of choice if this is covered under a warranty. It probably isn't - so ask what method is used to repair a damaged baffle. Then ask what that sort of repair might cost you. Our suppressor is designed to stay together under extremely hard use. It's also designed to be easily factory-serviced without financially penalizing a civilian end user if/when something eventually happens.

I'm reminded here of an anecdote worth sharing for the benefit of the readers. There was a USAF trial a couple years back where a Gemtech M4 suppressor was competitively tested against two "all welded construction" suppressors. After a number of tests were performed, I received a call from the procurement officer telling me "Your suppressor was damaged in testing, where can we send it back for repair?"

Naturally, I was disappointed at that outcome, and inquired as to who 'won' the trials.

His response was both encouraging and enlightening: "Oh no- I said your can was DAMAGED - the all-welded competing units CEASED TO BE SUPPRESSORS. Since you're the only suppressor still functioning, we're probably going to go ahead and issue you a sole source on this one".

We received the damaged suppressors back. They were, indeed, screwed up! Significant endcap strikes happened as ammo had gone squirrely and tumbled a bit during their fairly abusive endurance tests. Again, the modular design of a Gemtech unit allows for a quick and economical repair. The two competiting suppressors which utilized welding alone's disposition? The first suppressor's welds softened under the extreme heat and pressure. One or more baffles collapsed from their plug/spot welds and flew forward, stacking up in the nose of the suppressor, making it.... "quite loud". The second suppressor, an all-welded single wall design (that admittedly saved a few ounces as compared to our suppressor), when subjected to the intense heat and blast pressures had it's welds go "plastic" and as a baffle tore away from where it was welded to the suppressor tube wall, it ripped a large tear inside along with it, rupturing it's tube completely to the outside.

I suspect both of these competing units would be difficult and probably impossible to fix, no matter what kind of warm fuzzies the respective company's paper guarantee offers.

I make it a policy of this company to never publicly disclose or advertise the specific names of our U.S. end-users, but perhaps if anyone is really, really bored and likes to google enough, you might find one of the multiple USG contracts that were competed fairly and won by Gemtech to supply hundreds of those weak, unwelded, inferior cans to our troops after these tests...



Apparently the USAF was using 22LR for the G5 test that day?


Being on the design team that worked to improve the M4-2007/SPR/416SD, I can say we spent a lot of Kevin's money and time getting it to what it is today. FEA, over 9 different mount locking system designs, new CNC welding, new stronger materials, destructive testing, sound testing, finish testing and even new flash hider designs to improve durability as well as make it lighter than any competitors competing can.

I have not posted a response like this about any competitors suppressor but I do think Gemtech has mislead people on the G%. Saying it has a inconel blast baffle is vastly different than a inconel collar on the first baffle. As a Gemtech can owner I now have concerns about my M4-96D. Luckily having worked with AAC on the M4-2007 I get one as part of my compensation so I will relegate the M4-96D to my AR that sits in the back of the safe unused.
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Post by silencertalk » Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:58 pm

Kel from Gemtech posted on AR15:
And, regardless of what some might have you believe, Gemtech DOES weld many parts of our suppressors - just because there aren't gobs of weld seams and marks all over your can doesn't mean it doesn't utilize welding where it's needed.
This microscopic non-structural quality weld around 25% of the circumference is the only welding I could find in or on the entire can. I would suggest welding is needed in more places.

Image
Like you commented, I'm curious about about baffle welding [being touted] for added durability too. Welding alone isn't where the Gemtech units get their strength from. The G5 has a core suppressor of inconel, stainless, and titanium, and this "suppressor within a suppressor" is redundantly encased into a high grade stainless exterior shell with hydraulic torquing into place.
Perhaps try more 'hydraulic torquing.'

The point of that particular subject-matter veer: If you're listening to someone that says that our cans are corner-cutting or weak, I'd suggest pondering a bit about the above sorts of business decisions we make here. Our guys have been making, servicing, supporting, and shooting suppressors for decades, and generally what we do and how we do it is for good reasons. Selah!
Well I have been involved in suppressors for two years and I know roll pins and 'hydraulic torque' will not hold together an assault rifle suppressor.
The G5's double-wall construction and material choices makes for a very strong unit. In all the time I've been in the suppressor business, I can't recall ever having seen a Gemtech G5, M496D, HVT, or TPRS "blow out" or rupture a tube.
Careful choice of words. It seems like the point of failure is not the tube wall. The suppressor fails in a more basic way before the tube ever has a chance to fail.
Our suppressor is designed to stay together under extremely hard use.
I guess we differ on how we define 'extremely hard use.' It does seem like it would hold together with mild or moderate use. This is not brain surgery. The weak spots are easy to fix...

1. Weld everything using full penetration TIG welds. Hire a welding consultant.
2. Use a real Inconel blast baffle, not an insert. This is weak, and has concentricity tolerance stack.
3. Heat treat the blast baffle.
4. Eliminate lower temp metals such as Titanium.
5. Do not use internal springs.
6. This seems obvious, but roll pins are not high strength items.

Also EDM the bore after construction.
Last edited by silencertalk on Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by wreckdiver » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:33 pm

rsilvers wrote:Welding is important. We had discussed this before:
Then bigbore replied:
The welding paranoia is bullshit started by competitors to make tax stamp buying folks think Gemtech is a weaker suppressor.... I have yet to hear about any Gemtech can failing for any reason.
viewtopic.php?t=6398

This is how an AAC core looks before it is stuffed into the outer-tube:

Image
That is a work of art. I NEED one now.

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Post by Landry308 » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:44 pm

What :?:
The magical, super- duper HK 416, the gun that made the M16 obsolete and useless, the gun that costs 4K, failed to extract ? Please, say it aint so !

I'd still like to have one.

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Post by 3101 » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:45 pm

I shot it a lot today....great rifle...even with the FTE's, an extractor spring would fix it.
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Post by silencertalk » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:49 pm

No joking, we had not cleaned it in about 6000 rounds. The carbon caked to it was incredible, and it was still working. Then I decided to replace the extractor spring with one from Stag Arms just to be sure I had a new one.

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Post by Landry308 » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:51 pm

Actually just a light-hearted poke at all the hype about the new piston guns, etc. Some neat new stuff, but I don't think it's mandatory. The M16 has always worked well for me, and it still does. I don't see how HK can justify the price of the 416. It's nice, but come on !!!

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Post by 3101 » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:54 pm

I knew it was a lighthearted poke...see, I knew the story of the spring....I just wasn't gonna be the one to tell it....Kevin thought it was funny....
I like the M16/AR just fine, but if I had the cash no doubt I would get one..
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
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Post by silencertalk » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:03 pm

It costs the same as any other nice rifle. A Sig 551 is the same price. I doubt a SCAR would be less. The HK has a longer barrel life than an M4 and the parts look much higher quality to me.

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Post by cqbdoc10 » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:17 pm

My LWRC SRT (a piston gun) has functioned flawlessly with and without a suppressor.

Absolutely no FTFs and zero malfunctions of any kind.

I've done alot with standard military M4s, and not one has functioned as well as this rifle. Period.
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Post by beans-n-icewater » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:32 am

Robert,

Are these "M" baffles or something? Why are they "timed" together with those indexing tabs?


Image


It honestly looks more like a form1 can than something that costs that much...


I'd like to see more pics, including the face of the baffles
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Post by aarudd » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:57 am

rsilvers wrote: The HK has a longer barrel life than an M4 and the parts look much higher quality to me.
That one thing for sure cold hammer forged barrels are very strong! HK got it right going with cold hammer forged barrels I believe all barrels on machineguns should be done this way.

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Post by zach h » Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:00 am

what was the barrel length on the 416.

I want to try this test myself on a gladius just out of curisoty . any ammo sponsers out there ? I'll post vids and pics no matter the outcome. this will be done on my 11.5" M16.

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Post by rogue007 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:59 am

How would the M4-1000 preform with that same test?????? Not the 2K, but the 1K.......
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Post by silencertalk » Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:04 am

The M4-1000 would pass that test.

The barrel length was 10 inches.

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Fully Welded

Post by David Hineline » Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:47 am

One thing about a fully welded silencer, unless really motivated, people would not be taking your product apart and putting pictures of your secret cone/spacer technology on the internet.

I have an old Ceiner 2point mount that would melt the internals which are aluminum under that much of a firefight.

I have gone 3-30rnd mags back to back, without failure, but that is where I stop.
NFA shooters blow their load with only one pull of the trigger.

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