Our Gemtech G5 failed at 750 rounds.

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3101
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Post by 3101 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:57 am

The non belivers have gathered up on ar15.com
I do understand why some non believers may question AAC or Robert...
I was there, I invited myself to be there...I happened to hear that RS was in town on this board and I pinged him...when I found out they would be testing some cans I asked to come along....
I had unrestricted access to the can, ammo, rifle etc, and all testing was either done by me, or in my presence....
I have cans from AAC, Surefire and SWR...I am not a Kool Aide drinker....
For the AR15.com members reading this....after 5 magazines the silencer failed to be a silencer any more. I was shooting the rifle and loading the rifle..Robert wasn't, and Kevin wasn't in the range at the time..RS called the test with 6 mags left....to me, the G5 was only a glowing red flash and sound enhancer after just the first 5.....

Again, for the AR15.com members...
The flash coming back toward the shooter, and coming out the bottom of the can was consistant with my experience holding the rifle to my shoulder and shooting it. The 416 shot like a regular M16, there was all kinds of gas in my face...similar to an AR without a gas buster handle....

The flash picture shown here and on AR15 was the very first round ever fired out of that can....showing the sparks and all the places they came out of the can.

AAC hasn't given me anything...I paid full price in advance for my tickets to the silencer shoot, I did get a t shirt when I went back to the factory, but I asked for it.
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.

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Post by Mongo » Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:13 am

GaLEO wrote: I did get a t shirt when I went back to the factory, but I asked for it.

Oh my good you have been bought by the man! :lol: Of course out of your complete post the above statement will most likely be the only thing that 90% of ARFers will mention.
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Post by Blaster7Romeo » Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:22 am

Mongo wrote:
GaLEO wrote: I did get a t shirt when I went back to the factory, but I asked for it.

Oh my good you have been bought by the man! :lol: Of course out of your complete post the above statement will most likely be the only thing that 90% of ARFers will mention.
I am starting to think some of those guys at AR15.com (TM) work for CNN they way they portray things.
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Post by JohnnyC » Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:38 am

Mongo wrote:
GaLEO wrote: I did get a t shirt when I went back to the factory, but I asked for it.

Oh my good you have been bought by the man! :lol: Of course out of your complete post the above statement will most likely be the only thing that 90% of ARFers will mention.
I'll be bought by the man for a t-shirt! I want restroom dude! And then I'll scream up and down to high heaven that AAC is A+ #1 would do business with again!

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Post by #93 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:40 am

Well - I gotta say I am disappointed in Gemtech on this one. Dr. Dater told me that their cans are welded on the inside. This one most certainly was not and I don't think it was on oversight. Even a minimum wage migrant worker stuffing tubes would know not to put all the parts in there if they were normally welded.

The inconel insert is obviously a bad idea from the get go. Not sure what they could have been thinking except for the cheapest way to be able to advertise an inconel blast baffle.

I would have liked to see the test done with a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel and think the 10 inch barrel was selected to encourage failure but it looks like the can would have failed in time anyhow.

I am glad my HVT is on a bolt gun :(
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Post by silencertalk » Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:52 am

The 10 inch 416 was selected because that is what the military tested six AAC cans with. I was there for the test, and duplicated it. (All six AAC silencers survived the test).

Dr. Dater told me they were welded by email. He told three other people I know as well. And Kel from Gemtech posted this on AR15:
And, regardless of what some might have you believe, Gemtech DOES weld many parts of our suppressors - just because there aren't gobs of weld seams and marks all over your can doesn't mean it doesn't utilize welding where it's needed.

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Post by #93 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:58 am

Robert or GaLEO did the lack of welding in any way contribute to the failure of the can? From what I have read the blast baffle & insert failed, several roll pins gave way and the spring in the mount failed as well as the titanium. The limited pictures of the stack appear to be in good order, it does not appear to be damaged or collapsed. If the stack is in as good of shape as it appears why to you think it got so loud before the test was called?

Also is that a new stock G5. Dater told me a some time ago that Gem-tech is welding the entire circumference of the end caps now because they had problems with short welds like the one in your picture breaking.
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Post by 3101 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:58 am

the only weld I saw on the G5 yesterday was the small one around the endcap of the can....when the can was unscrewed after the roll pin failure the parts fell out, none of them I saw showed any sign of welding..
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.

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Post by #93 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:03 am

GaLEO wrote:the only weld I saw on the G5 yesterday was the small one around the endcap of the can....when the can was unscrewed after the roll pin failure the parts fell out, none of them I saw showed any sign of welding..
But did the lack of weld(s) contribute in any way to the can failing.
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Post by Hootiewho » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:13 am

I would imagine the lack of welding had a good bit to do with it. What, there are 3 to 4 different type metals in this can, assuming the roll pin was carbon steel. Thermal expansion is going to be different for all the different metals. Having something pinned like that, especially if the pin is a different metal than what it is pinning will either with heat, shear the pin or wear out the other metal around the pin over time. With high temps, something has to give somewhere if it is not all expanding the same, especially with repeated heat up and cool down cycles.

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Post by 3101 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:39 am

I am not a can designer.
several things happened inside the can...
The first is that the baffles inside the can started blasting apart, the middle baffle was destroyed by the time the test was over...that isn't a weld failure to me....
The inconcel insert was held in with a roll pin...the insert was, and is, loose in the blast baffle...
the titanium blast area was eaten up, looked like it had been chewed on as opposed to how neat and machined it looked when it was new....again, not a weld issue
The can finish was totally destroyed after 8 mags.....again, not just a weld failure...
the baffles were loose in the can when RS called the test....in my mind, a weld failure...
The rest of it was just poor work IMHO
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.

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Post by Hootiewho » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:41 am

+1

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Post by Slappy96 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:09 pm

I posted this over on ar15.com, I'm hoping to get a response from Gemtech. I must say these results are disturbing since I was about to order a G5.

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Post by silencertalk » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:32 pm

Slappy96 wrote:I posted this over on ar15.com, I'm hoping to get a response from Gemtech. I must say these results are disturbing since I was about to order a G5.
I know when I am about to buy something I have made an emotional commitment that is hard to undo. It just happened to me on an eight channel DVR security recorder. I had decided on one that I thought was 720x480 and 15 fps and after I ordered it I learned it was really 720x7.5 fps and the published specs were 'wrong.' It was very hard for me to undo what I sold myself on. I even rationalized that another model which claimed to be the 720x480 I wished for must also be incorrect in their specs even though I had no evidence they were also wrong. I had wished I researched it better before getting my mind fixed on it.

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Post by 3101 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:37 pm

875 for the can (MSRP, your mileage may vary)
200 for the stamp
You decide for yourself.

FWIW, no one from Gemtech has pm'd me, called me or anything....

Signing off now, see ya at the shoot....
Got any questions come find me, I will be there......
Mr. Burns: This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That's democracy for you.
Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.

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Post by Tyris » Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:06 pm

What the hell can GemTech say? Their own website says OK for full auto use. They did not disclaim it to say "but only for 3 mags!". I learned a lot from this thread, kudos to Robert and GaLEO.

GT is putting out some crap these days:

1. pistol cans with no boosters (40 and 45)
2. rifle cans with holes in the side (WTF!!)
3. rifle cans with pinned-in-place critical components
4. screwed together rifle cans
5. no structural welding
6. crappy wobble prone fast attach mechanism
7. reliant on an internal spring for positive lock-up

I suppose that can would be great on a bolt-rifle if it cost $300. I've seen Tac16s that have taken beta-mag dumps and still fare better than this G5 did. That hole in the side did make for a nice light show though.

Gemtech got donkey-punched here and they deserve it for putting out crap at top-flight prices. I suppose as long as they keep advertising like crazy, ill-informed people will keep buying their cans.

-T
Last edited by Tyris on Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Kevin/AAC » Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:10 pm

#93 wrote:
GaLEO wrote:the only weld I saw on the G5 yesterday was the small one around the endcap of the can....when the can was unscrewed after the roll pin failure the parts fell out, none of them I saw showed any sign of welding..
But did the lack of weld(s) contribute in any way to the can failing.
Yes, parts of the silencer bulged from lack of welding. Not buying fully welded silencers is like buying a new VCR.

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Post by JohnnyC » Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:31 pm

Kevin/AAC wrote: Yes, parts of the silencer bulged from lack of welding. Not buying fully welded silencers is like buying a new VCR.
Hey, there are some good shows you can only get on VHS. Your analogy should be to buying Sony MiniDisc. Nothing like a format that nobody wanted to begin with.

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Post by Hootiewho » Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:31 pm

Maybe the roll pin hole could be used as a firestarter in an emergency situation?

The G5 signal flare can, can be spotted by aircraft for miles!

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Post by Kevin/AAC » Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:34 pm

#93 wrote:Robert or GaLEO did the lack of welding in any way contribute to the failure of the can? From what I have read the blast baffle & insert failed, several roll pins gave way and the spring in the mount failed as well as the titanium. The limited pictures of the stack appear to be in good order, it does not appear to be damaged or collapsed. If the stack is in as good of shape as it appears why to you think it got so loud before the test was called?

Also is that a new stock G5. Dater told me a some time ago that Gem-tech is welding the entire circumference of the end caps now because they had problems with short welds like the one in your picture breaking.
This was a brand new silencer, just shipped from Gemtech.

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Post by silencertalk » Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:48 pm

Laser welders such as theirs are designed for light-duty apps such as jewelery repair and are not made for structural welds on thick steel. They are very slow so perhaps they sped up production by skipping internal welding and only doing 1/4 of the circumference. I know I have seen some with a full circumference so do doubt that have tried that, but I bet it was taking too long and they decided all of those welds were not really needed for their target customers.

The depth of penetration is not any more than the width you see in the photo. Welds should go to 'full penetration' and on a Gemtech can, that is 0.065 for the outer tube. The weld on the outer-tube was maybe 0.015 deep -- or a quarter of full penetration. That is better than nothing, but none of us would ride a motorcycle where the frame was welded to 1/4 depth. However, since there were zero welds on the inside, that is no better than nothing -- it is nothing.
ADCO/Bigbore posted:

The welding paranoia is bullshit started by competitors to make tax stamp buying folks think Gemtech is a weaker suppressor. To that extent, they have been very effective. I know for fact that people have made the decision to not buy because of the “welding” issue; even if they dont know what it really means. I stand behind the suppressors I sell, and I know Gemtech stands behind their products. I don’t think Gemtech fully welds their cans and I don’t care why or why not. I have yet to hear about any Gemtech can failing for any reason.
If you are looking for a suppressor that will perform up to any practical use, the G5 is a great can. If you are looking for a can to do numerous full auto mag dumps, perhaps the Gemtech isn’t the best choice. Again, I don’t know because I haven’t heard of one failing.
AAC does not weld for marketing purposes. Welding is done because, while it costs more, it is stronger than threading, rolls pins, or industrial adhesive. That is no surprise to industry who welds whenever a critical application requires more strength than using threaded fasteners and specialized glue.

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Post by tmix » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:00 pm

Originally Posted By TMIX:
I expect more out of this type of product.

I would also expect any suppressor maker to ensure the safety of their product.
What if the G5 was being used by some hot-shot special forces guys? Sparks, hot gasses and burning powder could easily put someone's buddy (or a necessary piece of equipment) out of commission during a very critical time in battle. If you can't see to shoot back.....


(quote scollins via arfcom)
I have never seen ANY suppressor (Gemtech, AAC or SWR) do something like that picture in real life. Those are the only cans that I've seen in person or shot myself.

The cans that would be similar to the G5 shown, and that I've personally shot or watched being shot, would be:
3 M4-96Ds
3 G5s
2 TPR-Ss
2 HVTs

So that is 10 different Gemtech cans, all basically built the same as the G5 (QD mount with a roll pin.) All were shot in the dark too, and I never observed anything like the picture. That picture also doesn't look like a regular muzzle flash to me. Looks like some type of foreign material was in the can to get it to create such distinct and individual "sparks."


I think he is insinuating something here....
So what was used? Thermite? Trail boss?

I just don't get why this is so unbelievable?
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Our Gemtech G5 failed at 750 rounds

Post by twodollarbill » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:08 pm

You guys can say what you want....the end result is that can failed.
I wish all my cans were 100% Stainless Steel and able to be disassembled and cleaned and repaired "if needed". That's what I like....and it does not bother me to periodcally check to see if the can is tight. This is a safety issue "which I enjoy doing". Even with a totally welded can (which I like AAC's) you still have to be aware of the can's tightness to the mount and the mounts tightness to the barrel. So I am not doing anything more with a unit that can be disassembled.
I would what to know that my next purchase met these high standards of the test you guys just did.
Call me old school.

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Post by silencertalk » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:13 pm

Looks like some type of foreign material was in the can to get it to create such distinct and individual "sparks."

I think he is insinuating something here....
So what was used? Thermite? Trail boss?

I just don't get why this is so unbelievable?
Actually I think there was also. In fact, I labeled the photo as such. However, we did not add anything -- that is how it came from Gemtech. It is likely manufacturing oils or metal chips igniting as that was the very first shot with the can ever. I posted another photo of more typical flash and only posted that one at all because it better showed where the gas leaked from the rear and through the side.

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Post by zach h » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:59 pm

Ti sparks pretty badly . it was probly some Ti dust from a grinding /debur operation left in the can.

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