Can my Class lll Dealer ship my Suppressor to me at home or

[ScottNC]

Is it legal for an Instate (NC) Class lll dealer to ship my suppressor to me at home or if not to a Class lll dealer (NC) that is much closer to me when he gets the stamp in from ATF? Seems like that should be legal, all the approvals are complete and it will be registered to me. If having a CC Permit affects this, I have one. Anyone encountered this? Thanks!

[bamachem]

You have to pick it up in person from that dealer as they must conduct business at their premisis where they are licensed. They must have you complete a form 4473 and verify your identity via a state issued ID.

You cannot have it shipped to a dealer closer to you without the current dealer possessing an approved Form 3 Dealer-to-Dealer transfer application. In order to do that, you would have to cancel your current Form 4, submit a new Form 3, wait for approval, pay for shipping to the "new" Class III dealer, then re-apply for a new Form 4, starting the 6+ month wait all over again. Temporary transfers via currier that do not need pre-approval is from the currently approved possessor to/from the manufacturer. Dealer-to-Dealer and Dealer-to-Customer transfers are heavily regulated.

Better just plan to take a road trip.

[doubloon]

It IS legal for a Class III dealer in your home state to ship a suppressor to your home in the same state.

In Texas I̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ the Silencer Shop is one dealer who will ship suppressors to the homes of in state buyers.

As part of the process the dealer is required to snail mail a notification to your CLEO. There is no response or approval required on the part of the CLEO just some waiting period, like a week, for the CLEO to respond.

http://www.silencershop.com/support/how ... a-silencer

We can’t ship a suppressor directly to your house (unless you live in Texas). For non-Texas buyers, you will need to locate an FFL holder in your state with a Class 2 or 3 SOT that can handle the transfer for you. We can even help you locate an FFL/SOT holder in your area if you don’t already know one.

link BUYING OPTIONS FOR TEXAS RESIDENTS

[ScottNC]

Interesting, I thought I'd heard of that, I'd guess it must be OK nationally and not just in Texas?

[doubloon]

That's my guess since it is federally licensed and regulated.

As a consumer I only worry about what happens in Texas . Somebody like -B- may chime in and be able to answer for the rest of the nation and maybe even cite the code that makes it OK and requires the CLEO notification without having to look it up.

I can google those specific details but ... I don't feel like it

Your dealer should know the truth if he's worth his salt.

[bamachem]

A form 4473 must be completed in person. Business regarding the FFL and SOT must be conducted at the licensed place of business or at a gun show. No other options are legal.

Since a 4473 is required to be completed at the time of delivery from the dealer to the owner after the initial approval of a Form 4, I don't see a technically legal way to ship a can to an in-state resident after approval.

Some people may do it, but I'd be very skeptical of doing so. I'll see what I can find in the NFA handbook.

[ScottNC]

I got an answer from the Silencer Shop, now it makes sense, no can do...Here is the reply.
Thanks for all your input guys, I appreciated it!
Scott,

It is only legal for us as we have ATF variance issued to us regarding 27 CFR 478.96(b). So we had the ATF, and the state of Texas approve our exemption from shipping laws.

Thank you,
Levi Fanning
Silencer Ownership Simplified
www.silencershop.com
Phone: 512-931-4556
Phone Hours: Mon-Fri 9am - 6pm, Sat 12noon-4pm
Fax: 888-659-1246
Store Location:
13729 Research Blvd., Suite 630, Austin, TX 78750
Store Hours: Mon-Fri 11am - 6pm, Saturdays 12 noon – 4pm
Scott

[bamachem]

I found my mistake.

If you apply on a Form 4 as an individual, then you are exempt from the 4473 requirement.

If you apply on a Form 4 as another entity (trust or corporation), then the 4473 is required.

As long as you are an individual, then I cannot find anything that would prevent a dealer from simply mailing the suppressor to the lawful owner via in-state carrier.

If you use a trust, then you must take possession in person at the dealer's business location because you must fill out a 4473 in person.

I used a trust, and therefore had to fill out a 4473. I forgot that individuals don't have to fill one out. However, I also see that SilencerShop requires a mailed 4473. Odd.

[doubloon]

I got an answer from the Silencer Shop, ...

Cool, I didn't know about the variance and I learned something without having to do the legwork!

[rjacobs]

I found my mistake.

If you apply on a Form 4 as an individual, then you are exempt from the 4473 requirement.

If you apply on a Form 4 as another entity (trust or corporation), then the 4473 is required.

As long as you are an individual, then I cannot find anything that would prevent a dealer from simply mailing the suppressor to the lawful owner via in-state carrier.

If you use a trust, then you must take possession in person at the dealer's business location because you must fill out a 4473 in person.

I used a trust, and therefore had to fill out a 4473. I forgot that individuals don't have to fill one out. However, I also see that SilencerShop requires a mailed 4473. Odd.

You are NOT exempt as an individual.

As an individual you HAVE TO FILL OUT A 4473. It just isnt called in.

As a trust/corp the person picking it up HAS TO FILL OUT A 4473 and it IS called in specific to THAT person.

That is the difference. Both require filling it out, but only with a trust/corp is it actually called in to NICS. As an individual there is a box on the 4473 that is checked that says exempt from NICS.

[bamachem]

You are NOT exempt as an individual.

As an individual you HAVE TO FILL OUT A 4473. It just isnt called in.

As a trust/corp the person picking it up HAS TO FILL OUT A 4473 and it IS called in specific to THAT person.

That is the difference. Both require filling it out, but only with a trust/corp is it actually called in to NICS. As an individual there is a box on the 4473 that is checked that says exempt from NICS.

The ATF contradicts itself in this respect with their published information.

Q: Is a NICS check required for the sale of firearms registered under the National Firearms Act (NFA)?
No, assuming all NFA requirements have been satisfied.

[18 U.S.C. 922(t), 27 CFR 478.102(d)]

Therefore, they are stating that a NICS check is NOT required for any NFA items as long as all NFA requirements have been satisfied.

However, the NFA Handbook says that for a trust/corp, a 4473 is not only required, but the NICS check is also required. Refer specifically to section 9.12 for more info.

NFA Handbook, Chapter 9, Transfer of NFA Items

Yet, on the current 4473, there is a box to check for "NO NICS CHECK REQUIRED FOR NFA ITEM".

So, it's pretty clear that a dealer is NOT required under any circumstances to have an NFA-approved individual complete a 4473. If you are a representative for a trust/corp, you are required to complete a 4473 at the time of taking possession of the approved item. As per the ATF website and the 4473 that is currently in use, a NICS check is NOT required on this representative of the trust/corp.

With that said, since a 4473 is NOT required for an individual transfer, as long as the item remains in-state, a dealer should be able to ship the item to the individual after approval. If the approved entitiy is a trust, then the possession must be transferred AFTER the required 4473 is completed. By law, this 4473 can only be completed in person and at the dealer's place of business.

[rjacobs]

Bamachem:

All I know is I picked up 2 cans from my dealer last week(he is a member on here). He does mostly Title II stuff so I trust that he knows the law pretty well and follows it.

I filled out a 4473, he checked the box "no nics check required" since these are personally registered. I went on my way.

It says a NICS check is not required, but doesnt say that a 4473 is not required.

I dont know if the 4473 is required(even without the NICS check) to show he actually completed the transfer out of his book. I dont know the FFL requirements on that. Without a 4473 if he ever got audited the ATF could possibly say something like "well you have these silencers on your books still, where are they?". I dont know if they ever WOULD say that, but I see it as a cover your ass thing form the dealer's perspective.

[Bendersquint]

Bamachem:

All I know is I picked up 2 cans from my dealer last week(he is a member on here). He does mostly Title II stuff so I trust that he knows the law pretty well and follows it.

I filled out a 4473, he checked the box "no nics check required" since these are personally registered. I went on my way.

It says a NICS check is not required, but doesnt say that a 4473 is not required.

I dont know if the 4473 is required(even without the NICS check) to show he actually completed the transfer out of his book. I dont know the FFL requirements on that. Without a 4473 if he ever got audited the ATF could possibly say something like "well you have these silencers on your books still, where are they?". I dont know if they ever WOULD say that, but I see it as a cover your ass thing form the dealer's perspective.

Yes a 4473 is required when transferring a NFA item.

It is how the items finally transfers ownership from the SOT to the new owner. Up until the 4473 is filled out the SOT is the owner regardless if there is a stamp affixed.

[Bendersquint]

I got an answer from the Silencer Shop, ...

Cool, I didn't know about the variance and I learned something without having to do the legwork!

That would have been my response. They have a filed variance to allow them to do that.

Noone in NC has such a variance, ScottNC has to make a road trip.

[rjacobs]

Yes a 4473 is required when transferring a NFA item.

It is how the items finally transfers ownership from the SOT to the new owner. Up until the 4473 is filled out the SOT is the owner regardless if there is a stamp affixed.

Thats what i thought was the case.

[GSRswapandslow]

if you're referring to the same dealer that I use....then he will be able to soon, if not already.

[GoingQuiet]

Is it legal for an Instate (NC) Class lll dealer to ship my suppressor to me at home or if not to a Class lll dealer (NC) that is much closer to me when he gets the stamp in from ATF? Seems like that should be legal, all the approvals are complete and it will be registered to me. If having a CC Permit affects this, I have one. Anyone encountered this? Thanks!

First, stop using the term "class III" dealer, we don't sell tax brackets.

Yes, your local FFL/SOT can ship your product to you at home.

NO, your local FFL/SOT cannot ship your product to another FFL for transfer unless it is via ATF Form 3 or Form 4.

CC is irrelevant to this discussion.

[GoingQuiet]

You have to pick it up in person from that dealer as they must conduct business at their premisis where they are licensed. They must have you complete a form 4473 and verify your identity via a state issued ID.

That's not correct. I ship products to customers all the time when their Form 4 is approved.

[GoingQuiet]

A form 4473 must be completed in person. Business regarding the FFL and SOT must be conducted at the licensed place of business or at a gun show. No other options are legal.

Since a 4473 is required to be completed at the time of delivery from the dealer to the owner after the initial approval of a Form 4, I don't see a technically legal way to ship a can to an in-state resident after approval.

Some people may do it, but I'd be very skeptical of doing so. I'll see what I can find in the NFA handbook.

It is legal but you won't find it discussed in the NFA handbook.

[GoingQuiet]

You are NOT exempt as an individual.

As an individual you HAVE TO FILL OUT A 4473. It just isnt called in.

As a trust/corp the person picking it up HAS TO FILL OUT A 4473 and it IS called in specific to THAT person.

That is the difference. Both require filling it out, but only with a trust/corp is it actually called in to NICS. As an individual there is a box on the 4473 that is checked that says exempt from NICS.

The ATF contradicts itself in this respect with their published information.

Q: Is a NICS check required for the sale of firearms registered under the National Firearms Act (NFA)?
No, assuming all NFA requirements have been satisfied.

[18 U.S.C. 922(t), 27 CFR 478.102(d)]

Therefore, they are stating that a NICS check is NOT required for any NFA items as long as all NFA requirements have been satisfied.

However, the NFA Handbook says that for a trust/corp, a 4473 is not only required, but the NICS check is also required. Refer specifically to section 9.12 for more info.

NFA Handbook, Chapter 9, Transfer of NFA Items

Yet, on the current 4473, there is a box to check for "NO NICS CHECK REQUIRED FOR NFA ITEM".

So, it's pretty clear that a dealer is NOT required under any circumstances to have an NFA-approved individual complete a 4473. If you are a representative for a trust/corp, you are required to complete a 4473 at the time of taking possession of the approved item. As per the ATF website and the 4473 that is currently in use, a NICS check is NOT required on this representative of the trust/corp.

With that said, since a 4473 is NOT required for an individual transfer, as long as the item remains in-state, a dealer should be able to ship the item to the individual after approval. If the approved entitiy is a trust, then the possession must be transferred AFTER the required 4473 is completed. By law, this 4473 can only be completed in person and at the dealer's place of business.

>So, it's pretty clear that a dealer is NOT required under any circumstances to have an NFA-approved individual complete a 4473

Please stop this nonsense. 4473's are required when an individual comes and picks up an NFA device. A NICS check is not required.

I have gone over this extensively and I know FFL's that used an approved Form 4 copy in lieu of a 4473 that got a talking to. 4473's are required, and not only are they required but the 4473 does not have to be completed in person and at the dealer's place of business.

[SilentTech]

I just spoke this afternoon with an agent in the Tampa field office for the ATF and I was informed that any firearm (silencers are firearms) transfer to a a person picking up a silencer (ATF term) must fill out a 4473 no exception. A NICS check is required for a corporation/trust for the individual picking it up and NICS is not required for an individual with CLEO approval but the 4473 must be filled out. the only time a 4473 is not required is for transfers between valid FFL's with an approved form 3. This is how it is listed in the NFA handbook and on the form 4473.

David Harris
Silent Technology Inc.
07 FFL SOT 02
Manufacturer and retailer of silencers