.22 LR cans and back pressure

[wacki]

Just wondering how big of a difference there is in back pressure with the top .22LR cans.

Sparrow
Spectre ii
Element
Kodiak TL
Essence

Is the fouling of magazines and pistols glaringly different or is it just noticeable if you know what to look for? Also, if you had to rank back pressure of the above how would you rank them?

Thanks,

[yamatitan]

I havent really tested it too much but I can tell a huge difference on short barreled pistols between my element and sparrow/essence. I would have to really shoot them more to tell you because honestly its not a big deal to me. I just know when shooting the element I get particles hitting my face and dont feel it with the sparrow or essence.

[black-sheep]

I have an AAC aviator,prodigy. And 4 liberty Essence 22 cans.
I wanted a matching set for my kids
The main reason is I have 4 of the libertycans is after I looked
at all the things I wanted they came out on top.
My considerations were
#1 Can I dip the whole can if I got really lazy and shot to much.
#2 Blowback
#3 Take apart.
#4 FRP
Price did not matter to me at all cuz these are for my 3 kids and me.
The blow back is bad with my prodigy and cleaning the tube sucks.
I don't have a sparrow to compare to so I can't say.
I would look at the essence and if you don't mind the weight the Spectre ii.
But that is just my .2

[wacki]

The blow back is bad with my prodigy and cleaning the tube sucks.

Please explain this. What do you mean by bad blowback? What do you notice? Dirty magazines or air in the face? Bad cycling?


What's the worst part about cleaning the prodigy? The sparrow, prodigy, essence, kodiak are all monocores.

[strobro32]

I conducted a quick, non-scientific test a while back by putting blank address labels on the front of the mags of my MkIII. I tested the TM Zypher, Spectre 1, SS Sparrow and a TM CHD (recored by Liberty). I have since done the Spectre 2. I find that the TM/Liberty CHD and Sparrow did the best.

I do get noticeably more blow back with the Spectre 2 than my Sparrow on the MKIII and my 4.5" barrel S&W M&P 15-22.

[Historian]

I conducted a quick, non-scientific test a while back by putting blank address labels on the front of the mags of my MkIII. I tested the TM Zypher, Spectre 1, SS Sparrow and a TM CHD (recored by Liberty). I have since done the Spectre 2. I find that the TM/Liberty CHD and Sparrow did the best.

I do get noticeably more blow back with the Spectre 2 than my Sparrow on the MKIII and my 4.5" barrel S&W M&P 15-22.

Well done with a minimalist set up, most compelling results,
in the best tradition of scientific experiments!

So surprisingly ('why did I not think of it') simple
but most informative. My hat off to you.
More obscure but essential information
that gets included in the data base of
suppressor/firearms characteristics.

And I had not even known until now that I should know the data.
Thank you for posing the question in the first place, Wacki.

[57fairlane]

If this thread was 2-3 years old, I'm sure I could turn this into a pissing match with chondro

I've ripped on liberty before but in terms of blowback, I've got to think they designed their cans around that. To the shooter, the kodiak/essence is very quiet. Subjectively, every bit as quiet as the element/sparrow if not more so and I think the main reasons are the baffles aren't as effective but OAL is much longer so when combined with a tapered bore (IIRC .250" start out to ~.275" end cap) the gas has a much harder time coming back into the gun than same bore sized k-baffle cans like the element (to which the k-baffle design is more prone to backpressure anyways seeing as how its a funnel on the back side).

Which, to me, also explains why the liberty cans meter much louder at the muzzle than the element/sparrow/genesis

[wacki]

I conducted a quick, non-scientific test

As a scientist... I would call what you did science. I can reproduce your test and either confirm or falsify your results with quantifiable data. We can use these tests to support or falsify theories about which can has the least blow back. That is exactly what science is about.

Is what you did complex? No. Most scientists love simple quick and cheap experiments though.

[Historian]

I conducted a quick, non-scientific test

As a scientist... I would call what you did science. I can reproduce your test and either confirm or falsify your results with quantifiable data. We can use these tests to support or falsify theories about which can has the least blow back. That is exactly what science is about.

Is what you did complex? No. Most scientists love simple quick and cheap experiments though.

Exactly! The most notable was when Richard 'Dick' Feynman*, the esteemed Noble Prize
physicist, was on the board investigating the crash of the Space Shuttle Challenger,
killing those brave astronauts. During the conference Dick no longer could take the
babbling and startled the gathering when he took a pitcher of ice water, dumped the
O-ring in, waited, pulled it out, and with a twist the chilled ring cracked. Conclusion,
during the launch the ambient air temperature was below normal and thus the
ring cracked, causing the catastrophe.

Thiokol complained that the demonstration was really not scientific. Huh!
Same bunch would have dismissed Archimedes' sitting in a bathtub's derivation
of measuring mass.

*"The Feynman Lectures on Physics: Commemorative Issue, Three Volume Set" are the bedrock
of any scientist's learning physics. When they came out in the 1960's I was able to get the
movies of his lectures that my team and I saw during lunch. Having friends in really high
places really helped.
To see what a brilliant lecturer and mind he was you can view some of his lectures on YouTube:
<< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SrHzSGn-I8 >>

[Emilio]

If this thread was 2-3 years old, I'm sure I could turn this into a pissing match with chondro

I've ripped on liberty before but in terms of blowback, I've got to think they designed their cans around that. To the shooter, the kodiak/essence is very quiet. Subjectively, every bit as quiet as the element/sparrow if not more so and I think the main reasons are the baffles aren't as effective but OAL is much longer so when combined with a tapered bore (IIRC .250" start out to ~.275" end cap) the gas has a much harder time coming back into the gun than same bore sized k-baffle cans like the element (to which the k-baffle design is more prone to backpressure anyways seeing as how its a funnel on the back side).

Which, to me, also explains why the liberty cans meter much louder at the muzzle than the element/sparrow/genesis

I agree with this.

Another easy test is using clear 10/22 mags. To me the TL sounds like the top cans but notice less sticky mags with it.

[everyusernametaken]

*"The Feynman Lectures on Physics: Commemorative Issue, Three Volume Set" are the bedrock
of any scientist's learning physics.

Amen! The single most prized text I own, and I'm certain it's the best overall physics course to date.

[Historian]

*"The Feynman Lectures on Physics: Commemorative Issue, Three Volume Set" are the bedrock
of any scientist's learning physics.

Amen! The single most prized text I own, and I'm certain it's the best overall physics course to date.

My compliments to you on your great taste. Happy we share more than one interest in common.

A vignette you might find interesting. Dick Feynman's sister worked in a Government lab I
was once associated with. Bright woman but not in his league. Her reaction was sad to see when
folks OOhed that she was related to him.

To this day when I a need to revisit some issue for further clarity ( like a mountain spring to a
thirsty mind ) I will pick up the 'Red Books' - got them the first year they came out - to delve into his cognitive
processes and metaphors. I still re-read his tribute to his High School teacher, Mr. Baden, on
the Least Action Principle. The fact that the human mind/brain has a magical quantum processor
to conceive of it and then upon its application open up the world still motivates my research.

I also was blessed with such an inspirational math teacher in high school whose memory I still revere after 60 years

Best wishes, brother.

p.s. You will understand why when someone asks me "What's new?" I give them a smart ass mathematical
physicist's answer " c/lambda "

[everyusernametaken]

*"The Feynman Lectures on Physics: Commemorative Issue, Three Volume Set" are the bedrock
of any scientist's learning physics.

Amen! The single most prized text I own, and I'm certain it's the best overall physics course to date.

My compliments to you on your great taste. Happy we share more than one interest in common.

A vignette you might find interesting. Dick Feynman's sister worked in a Government lab I
was once associated with. Bright woman but not in his league. Her reaction was sad to see when
folks OOhed that she was related to him.

To this day when I a need to revisit some issue for further clarity ( like a mountain spring to a
thirsty mind ) I will pick up the 'Red Books' - got them the first year they came out - to delve into his cognitive
processes and metaphors. I still re-read his tribute to his High School teacher, Mr. Baden, on
the Least Action Principle. The fact that the human mind/brain has a magical quantum processor
to conceive of it and then upon its application open up the world still motivates my research.

I also was blessed with such an inspirational math teacher in high school whose memory I still revere after 60 years

Best wishes, brother.

p.s. You will understand why when someone asks me "What's new?" I give them a smart ass mathematical
physicist's answer " c/lambda "

I have a later edition with Leighton and Sands. My father has the original edition. I used his at first, many moons ago, and soon thereafter bought my own when he became impatient for me to return them.

It would have been an incredible honor to attend his lectures. There is no other text I've read that left me with such a feeling of admiration and respect for the author.

[wacki]

Any other users out there have an essence or kodiak? I'm really interested in how big of a diff there is between these cans and the Sparrow now.

Thanks!

[wacki]

I havent really tested it too much but I can tell a huge difference on short barreled pistols between my element and sparrow/essence. I would have to really shoot them more to tell you because honestly its not a big deal to me. I just know when shooting the element I get particles hitting my face and dont feel it with the sparrow or essence.

I just noticed you have all three. Can you tell a difference between the sparrow and essence?

[yamatitan]

I havent really tested it too much but I can tell a huge difference on short barreled pistols between my element and sparrow/essence. I would have to really shoot them more to tell you because honestly its not a big deal to me. I just know when shooting the element I get particles hitting my face and dont feel it with the sparrow or essence.

I just noticed you have all three. Can you tell a difference between the sparrow and essence?

Not that ive noticed but I really havent compared them side by side. I plan on shooting tuesday and ill pay closer attention to it and let you know what I find.

[wacki]

Not that ive noticed but I really havent compared them side by side. I plan on shooting tuesday and ill pay closer attention to it and let you know what I find.

Please do. Thanks!

[yamatitan]

Ok I shot about 500 rounds today of cci standard velocity and some remington golden bullet. Here are the conclusions I came up with.....The element is by far the quietest can on pistols still out of the 3. This comes with tremendous blow back though. I picked my sig p226 with 22lr conversion as the hosts because for some reason this gun has the worse blowback of any of the hosts I own. Its very common for my buddies asking what is hitting their face when they shoot this one suppressed and I have never got asked that with any other guns (gsg 1911, ruger 22/45, p22, etc..) I also notice it when shooting and it was my first thought after getting it. Anyway the element is almost painful with this gun shooting any ammo. Its sandblasts your face lol which is not a problem at all on the other guns I dont even notice it really other than gumming up the action faster. I started out with cci because its cleaner than the golden bullet. I didnt even bother trying the golden bullet with the element. So then I switched to the SS sparrow running cci I counted on average 3 particles hitting my face per 15 round magazine. So I switched to the Liberty essence and didnt get hit by anything at all shooting the cci. Then I switched to golden bullet ammo and this is when the essence really shined. I started with the sparrow again and got hit with a particle on average of 1 particle per round. Switching to the essence nothing was in my face at all even with the dirtier golden bullet.

I repeated this test through about 10 magazines (15 rounds) of each both ammo types with both the sparrow and essence. The tests where pretty much identical with every magazine.

In case anyone cares I can confirm golden bullet is crap ammo I had about 20 rounds that required double hits with the hammer and had 1 that wouldnt go off after hitting it 3 times in double action. All cci ammo felt consists and recoil/sound and went off every time. lol

Another note is that the sparrow and essence literally sound identical to my ears. I confirmed this once again today I cant tell a difference at all between them on pistol or rifle hosts. The element is noticeable quieter on pistols to me and noticeable louder on rifles. Saying this even being louder on rifles or quieter on pistols they are all so close I wouldnt let it sway you one way or the other on picking one.

[yamatitan]

The sparrow is still my favorite can, its short, sounds good, built like a tank rated for the most calibers, and sounds just as good! Dont forget by far the easiest to take apart and clean.

[este]

I conducted a quick, non-scientific test a while back by putting blank address labels on the front of the mags of my MkIII. I tested the TM Zypher, Spectre 1, SS Sparrow and a TM CHD (recored by Liberty). I have since done the Spectre 2. I find that the TM/Liberty CHD and Sparrow did the best.

I do get noticeably more blow back with the Spectre 2 than my Sparrow on the MKIII and my 4.5" barrel S&W M&P 15-22.

That's an interesting way to do that, but IMO, it seems 1-2-3 are well within each others margin of error and the 4 is the only noticable worse one, that's from the low-res picture I'm looking at. 10 more labels on each and you might be on to something.

[wacki]

Thanks for the feedback yamatitan. That's the kind of info I need to justify getting a Kodiak TL or Essence.

I appreciate it very much.

[strobro32]

The sparrow is still my favorite can, its short, sounds good, built like a tank rated for the most calibers, and sounds just as good! Dont forget by far the easiest to take apart and clean.

+1

When all my NFA stuff was stolen, including 5 of my 22 cans, the very first purchase I made was another SS Sparrow. How's that for a recommendation. It also tells noobs which NFA purchase I would recommend first.

[wacki]

The sparrow is still my favorite can, its short, sounds good, built like a tank rated for the most calibers, and sounds just as good! Dont forget by far the easiest to take apart and clean.

+1

When all my NFA stuff was stolen, including 5 of my 22 cans, the very first purchase I made was another SS Sparrow. How's that for a recommendation. It also tells noobs which NFA purchase I would recommend first.

what 22 cans did you own?

[strobro32]

Thompson Machine Operator
Thompson Machine Zephyr 1st gen
Thompsom Machine CHD
SWR Spectre
SC SS Sparrow

[wacki]

is that a wrap on the bottom two cans? which can is the really big one?