Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

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PD3341
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Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by PD3341 » Mon May 20, 2013 8:33 pm

Our team runs AAC M4 2000 suppressors full time. Currently we use gas impengiment guns and get a lot of blow back from the chambers. We have tried gas buster charging handles with little success. We are tired of the burning eyes and black marks on our cheaks from heavy shooting.

We have been approved to buy new rifles and have tested several gas piston full auto rifles. We have been disappointed in the gas blow back and weight of the 10.5 inch uppers.

I am looking for recommendations of rifles and constructive input on this topic.

Thanks for the help

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by rjacobs » Mon May 20, 2013 8:51 pm

BCM Gunfighter charging handles(the newest generation) and the Gas Vent will completely cure you of gas face. I have never once had an issue with my 10.5" upper and gas face running the aforementioned combination. However if you have to have a forward assist(useless IMO) the gas vent wont work for you.

If I could buy a new 5.56 full auto I would be VERY tempted to look at either the SCAR or perhaps the Berretta ARX160(been reading good things about them) and maybe even the HK416(if funds allowed). I would NOT buy an AR running a piston conversion.

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by PD3341 » Mon May 20, 2013 9:21 pm

Great information, thanks. I have never seen the Gas Vent before and I will order a T&E.

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by bigbigpig » Mon May 20, 2013 9:43 pm

You may also want to test a 7.62mm suppressor like the 762SDN6. You'll get much less blowback and won't sacrifice much suppression. It'll be a bit longer and heavier, but not much, and not a deal breaker in my opinion. You may feel different about it.

Edit: I just checked and the 762SDN6 is 2.4oz heavier and 1" longer than the M4-2000.

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by rjacobs » Mon May 20, 2013 10:47 pm

PD3341 wrote:Great information, thanks. I have never seen the Gas Vent before and I will order a T&E.
Make sure to pair with the BCM Gunfighter charging handle(the new generation with the raised portion at the rear), although your current Gas Busters might be ok too, I have no experience with them as I run the above combo. I know a couple guys who use the same combo(BCM CH and Gas Vent) and they report no issues with gas face. There are also lots of reports online of great success with the combo.

Not that I dont think you shouldnt get new guns :twisted: , but when $80 in parts can potentially solve a problem that you are trying to throw thousands of $$$$ at, I guess I err on the side of trying the cheap way out. If your guns are otherwise working for you guys, you got nothing to lose but 80 bucks.

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by PD3341 » Tue May 21, 2013 9:06 am

bigbigpig wrote:You may also want to test a 7.62mm suppressor like the 762SDN6. You'll get much less blowback and won't sacrifice much suppression. It'll be a bit longer and heavier, but not much, and not a deal breaker in my opinion. You may feel different about it.

Edit: I just checked and the 762SDN6 is 2.4oz heavier and 1" longer than the M4-2000.
Definitely not a bad idea, but I would like to avoid replacing all of the suppressors and rifles.

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by PD3341 » Tue May 21, 2013 9:09 am

rjacobs wrote:
PD3341 wrote:Great information, thanks. I have never seen the Gas Vent before and I will order a T&E.
Make sure to pair with the BCM Gunfighter charging handle(the new generation with the raised portion at the rear), although your current Gas Busters might be ok too, I have no experience with them as I run the above combo. I know a couple guys who use the same combo(BCM CH and Gas Vent) and they report no issues with gas face. There are also lots of reports online of great success with the combo.

Not that I dont think you shouldnt get new guns :twisted: , but when $80 in parts can potentially solve a problem that you are trying to throw thousands of $$$$ at, I guess I err on the side of trying the cheap way out. If your guns are otherwise working for you guys, you got nothing to lose but 80 bucks.
We're going to try your recommendation on one of our existing guns. All of our guns have reached the end of their life span and need to be replaced. However if this option works, we can order DI guns and save some money. Thanks

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by KSmoker » Tue May 21, 2013 10:10 am

If you are looking for a lightweight solution with less blowback you might consider a DI setup with a switched gas system like Noveske's Switchblock uppers. I shoot a 10.5 with no switch, SDN-6 and a Gasbuster and still get a ton of gas back, just not in the eyes. Also be wary of piston guns. I've shot the ACR with a modern 5.56 suppressor and the blowback was worse then my DI gun plus it was front heavy as hell. If I were to try suppressing a gas piston gun I'd go SCAR 16. They are the lightest piston gun I've had the opportunity to shoot.

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by srt-4_uk » Tue May 21, 2013 10:14 am

How do you get blowback with a piston gun?

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by Wahnsinn » Tue May 21, 2013 10:23 am

srt-4_uk wrote:How do you get blowback with a piston gun?
Ask M1A users :D Definitely getting gas from the chamber area still.

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by srt-4_uk » Tue May 21, 2013 10:27 am

That makes sense.

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by rjacobs » Tue May 21, 2013 11:06 am

I had a buddy that bought a piston AR of some sort after I told him not to. He calls me up a few weeks later and says something like "this gun is still filthy as all hell, I thought piston guns were supposed to be clean" I told him it comes back through the chamber AND in greater volume and this could potentially be dirtier than a gas gun, especially in the chamber and barrel locking lugs. He didnt like my explanation(even if it was right).

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este
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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by este » Tue May 21, 2013 11:15 am

Wahnsinn wrote:
srt-4_uk wrote:How do you get blowback with a piston gun?
Ask M1A users :D Definitely getting gas from the chamber area still.
It's not just chamber area, it's down the barrel. Pistol suppressed are almost ALWAYS overgassed and run dirty when suppressed. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't had a direct comparison or is not being objective.

A correctly gassed DI is the way to go.

Bandaids:
Gas buster charging handles
Vented forward assist hole
Heavier buffer / stiffer spring
Piston system

Actual solutions:
Smaller gas port / less gas when suppressed

There is no way around it. If its a vital use gun you need the correct pressure when suppressed or not suppressed. If its a 100% suppressed gun, a small port in the barrel is prefered, but an adjustable set screw gas block isn't horrible. If its going to be shot unsuppressed a toggle adjustable gas block is required. Noveske switchblock, Innovative WAR upper, MicroMOA switch, LaRue PST on their rifles only. These have issues too, but this is the only thing that will get the dwell and cyclic rate to where they should be.

The other option, and one that works well enough but is not a replacement for an adjustable block but offers other benifits as well is the A5 buffer system (or A2 if you don't need adjustable stocks), the A5 allows me to run 5.3 and 6.1oz buffers with the A2 spring very reliably in all of my uppers on the same lowers. I was quite surprised with it. I haven't tried an A5H4 buffer yet, but the A5H3 seems to work universally for my uppers. I would guess it cuts the cyclic rate down 20-30%, and with the heavier buffer on my 16" recce it's exetremyl smooth recoiling. The switchblock on the other hand cuts the overall down about 40% I've seen.

Edit: while I recommend the A5, I don't really like the idea of carbine H3 in my lowers because of the questionability of that gun to run that buffer when not suppressed. My interest in the A5 is that it runs all my uppers on all my lowers, free to mix and match as I please.

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by Irishpride » Tue May 21, 2013 12:09 pm

If your rifles are at the end of there life then maybe you might want to consider something better and more effective like the AAC MPW in 300 BlkOut. Made to run off a 9" barrel and will give you great ballistics if you choose to run supersonic. Even if you wanted to keep your lower assemblies and just change the upper your getting something perfect for close and medium range quarters. Here are the specs on the MPW. I also listed some info on the round itself.

Advanced Armament Corporation complete MPW rifles are available in 16”, 12.5” and 9” barrels chambered for 300 AAC BLACKOUT. (*All NFA rules apply)

A 30 caliber rifle the size of an AR15 5.56mm
caliber rifle - without a reduction in magazine capacity. The AAC MPW in 300
AAC Blackout uses ordinary 223/5.56mm magazines for a full 30 round
capacity, and is available in 9, 12.5, and 16 inch barrels.*

Components are of premium quality. The 1:7 twist barrel is nitrided to provide
extreme corrosion resistance and high hardness for a long life - outperforming
chrome-lined barrels for longevity without the potential impediments to
accuracy. The muzzle is threaded 5/8-24 and includes an AAC 51-tooth BLACKOUT™
flash suppressor with the complete upper. A Knight’s Armament free-floating URX
III helps maintain accuracy while providing for the mounting of accessories.
The bolt carrier group’s nickel boron (Ni-B) UCT EXO coating has a very high
hardness and lower friction than either chrome or nickel teflon. There is also
a base layer of high-phosphorous electroless nickel that ensures the extreme
corrosion protection that is absent from other Nickel Boron carriers that use a
single, thinner layer. The bolt itself is Carpenter 158® phosphated shot-peened
steel to ensure precise dimensions with no concerns for hydrogen embrittlement
in the critical lug area. A special green o-ring that is tested to not bind
even at -40 degrees F is standard. The extractor spring is made from premium
ultra-strong wire and is a low fatigue design to ensure the longest possible
life. The extractor pin made from 300 ksi S2 tool steel - not the much lower
strength S7 more commonly used.

Finally, a properly-staked carrier-key with
Permatex® gasket-seal compound ensures no gas leakage. The trigger is a
Geissele for great feel and reliability, and the stock and pistol grip by
MagPul Industries. One magazine is included. Optics, mounts, and silencer are
not included.

The recommended optional sound suppressor is the AAC 762-SDN-6™, which provides
an average of 39.3 dB reduction with subsonic ammunition.

Project goals were:
Create a reliable compact 30-cal solution for AR platform
Utilize existing inventory magazines while retaining their full capacity
Create the optimal platform for sound and flash suppressed fire
Create compatible supersonic ammo that matches 7.62×39mm ballistics
Provide the ability to penetrate barriers with high-mass projectiles
Provide all capabilities in a lightweight, durable, low recoiling package

Maximum effective range = *460 metres (503 yd) 125 grain supersonic
200 metres (219 yd) 220 grain subsonic
Barrel Cartridge Velocity Energy
9 in (230 mm) barrel 300 AAC Blackout, 115 gr UMC 2,120 ft/s (650 m/s) 1,136 ft·lbf (1,540 J)
16 in (410 mm) barrel 300 AAC Blackout, 115 gr UMC 2,295 ft/s (700 m/s) 1,344 ft·lbf (1,822 J)
9 in (230 mm) barrel 300 AAC Blackout, 125 gr OTM 2,030 ft/s (620 m/s) 1,143 ft·lbf (1,550 J)
16 in (410 mm) barrel 300 AAC Blackout, 125 gr OTM 2,215 ft/s (675 m/s) 1,360 ft·lbf (1,840 J)

PM if you would like Agency pricing
B&H Gun Sales
Merritt Island, FL
FFL, SOT Class 3 Dealer and LE MIlitary Distributer
[email protected]
(Facebook) B&H Gun Sales

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Gary_SilencerCo
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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by Gary_SilencerCo » Tue May 21, 2013 5:51 pm

A piston gun will NOT fix your problem. the commentator's above telling you DI with CORRECT port size are speaking from experience. this has been my experience as well.
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PD3341
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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by PD3341 » Tue May 21, 2013 8:40 pm

Gary_SilencerCo wrote:A piston gun will NOT fix your problem. the commentator's above telling you DI with CORRECT port size are speaking from experience. this has been my experience as well.

I have learned a lot so far and agree. I was on the phone with two suppressors companies and several high end rifle manufactures today. We have a budget around 1500 per rifle so now I'm looking for the right rifle for the budget. I have already ordered the gunfighter charging handle and a gas vent. We are going to install this on a 14.5 DI gun and see if the gas is greatly reduced. If so, I am going to look for 12" DI guns to run. Our current 10.5's are too short.

PD3341
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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by PD3341 » Tue May 21, 2013 8:43 pm

Irishpride wrote:If your rifles are at the end of there life then maybe you might want to consider something better and more effective like the AAC MPW in 300 BlkOut. Made to run off a 9" barrel and will give you great ballistics if you choose to run supersonic. Even if you wanted to keep your lower assemblies and just change the upper your getting something perfect for close and medium range quarters. Here are the specs on the MPW. I also listed some info on the round itself.

Advanced Armament Corporation complete MPW rifles are available in 16”, 12.5” and 9” barrels chambered for 300 AAC BLACKOUT. (*All NFA rules apply)

A 30 caliber rifle the size of an AR15 5.56mm
caliber rifle - without a reduction in magazine capacity. The AAC MPW in 300
AAC Blackout uses ordinary 223/5.56mm magazines for a full 30 round
capacity, and is available in 9, 12.5, and 16 inch barrels.*

Components are of premium quality. The 1:7 twist barrel is nitrided to provide
extreme corrosion resistance and high hardness for a long life - outperforming
chrome-lined barrels for longevity without the potential impediments to
accuracy. The muzzle is threaded 5/8-24 and includes an AAC 51-tooth BLACKOUT™
flash suppressor with the complete upper. A Knight’s Armament free-floating URX
III helps maintain accuracy while providing for the mounting of accessories.
The bolt carrier group’s nickel boron (Ni-B) UCT EXO coating has a very high
hardness and lower friction than either chrome or nickel teflon. There is also
a base layer of high-phosphorous electroless nickel that ensures the extreme
corrosion protection that is absent from other Nickel Boron carriers that use a
single, thinner layer. The bolt itself is Carpenter 158® phosphated shot-peened
steel to ensure precise dimensions with no concerns for hydrogen embrittlement
in the critical lug area. A special green o-ring that is tested to not bind
even at -40 degrees F is standard. The extractor spring is made from premium
ultra-strong wire and is a low fatigue design to ensure the longest possible
life. The extractor pin made from 300 ksi S2 tool steel - not the much lower
strength S7 more commonly used.

Finally, a properly-staked carrier-key with
Permatex® gasket-seal compound ensures no gas leakage. The trigger is a
Geissele for great feel and reliability, and the stock and pistol grip by
MagPul Industries. One magazine is included. Optics, mounts, and silencer are
not included.

The recommended optional sound suppressor is the AAC 762-SDN-6™, which provides
an average of 39.3 dB reduction with subsonic ammunition.

Project goals were:
Create a reliable compact 30-cal solution for AR platform
Utilize existing inventory magazines while retaining their full capacity
Create the optimal platform for sound and flash suppressed fire
Create compatible supersonic ammo that matches 7.62×39mm ballistics
Provide the ability to penetrate barriers with high-mass projectiles
Provide all capabilities in a lightweight, durable, low recoiling package

Maximum effective range = *460 metres (503 yd) 125 grain supersonic
200 metres (219 yd) 220 grain subsonic
Barrel Cartridge Velocity Energy
9 in (230 mm) barrel 300 AAC Blackout, 115 gr UMC 2,120 ft/s (650 m/s) 1,136 ft·lbf (1,540 J)
16 in (410 mm) barrel 300 AAC Blackout, 115 gr UMC 2,295 ft/s (700 m/s) 1,344 ft·lbf (1,822 J)
9 in (230 mm) barrel 300 AAC Blackout, 125 gr OTM 2,030 ft/s (620 m/s) 1,143 ft·lbf (1,550 J)
16 in (410 mm) barrel 300 AAC Blackout, 125 gr OTM 2,215 ft/s (675 m/s) 1,360 ft·lbf (1,840 J)

PM if you would like Agency pricing
We are very close to AAC and had a opportunity to shoot the 300 extensively and agree with everything you said. However, we have sixteen M4 2000 and five 7.62SD so we would have to replace the suppressors and buy a lot of ammo. I haven't found anyone who has 300 on state contract so it's going to expensive.

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by Irishpride » Tue May 21, 2013 9:14 pm

Well hopfully we can change the contracting and get 300 blkout on it. Just had John Hollister do a demo for several agencies here in Florida. After having Chiefs and others there and now knowing what they know now about 300 Blkout were hoping to change that.

Go with what Gary and others said. DI and port size should do the trick. M4-2000 oustanding suppressor.
B&H Gun Sales
Merritt Island, FL
FFL, SOT Class 3 Dealer and LE MIlitary Distributer
[email protected]
(Facebook) B&H Gun Sales

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by Wakko » Wed May 29, 2013 11:00 am

Our SWAT team just went with 300 BLK. In typical SWAT fashion they got a boner for the latest greatest and just marched ahead with it without REALLY thinking it through from an administrator's point of view. While I'm offering zero dispute that the Blackout is a great round and superior to the 5.56, our team never figured in the additional issues (mainly cost) of the round. We order tens of thousands of rounds of 5.56 a year and use state contract pricing on it, and we order it 6 months to a YEAR in advance. Now our rangemaster has to find the Blackout and find a way to pay for it when there's simply no budget for it. As with everyone else, our budget is way down over previous years and we've already had to trim so much. So if you decide to go with Blackout, just make sure your budget can handle the ammo costs. I don't know if our guys have ordered or received their new rifles yet, but last I checked we certainly had no ammo.
Heroes never die.

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by PD3341 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:57 pm

We chose a system! When it was all said and done, our department funded the purchase of Noveske shorty lights with switchblocks. We are using AAC M4 2000 cans with them. Has anyone have any thoughts or experience with this set up and face gas?

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by Thwik » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:35 pm

PD3341 wrote:We chose a system! When it was all said and done, our department funded the purchase of Noveske shorty lights with switchblocks. We are using AAC M4 2000 cans with them. Has anyone have any thoughts or experience with this set up and face gas?
I've got the exact same setup.

Image


I'm definitely a fan of it. As a lefty, I don't run the gasbuster, just the regular (non raised) BCM CH, and in the suppressed setting, it shoots great. Might be a little more gas than unsuppressed, but nothing like other suppressed rigs I've shot.

One thing to keep in mind, if you are shooting these suppressed a lot, maybe every range session, just work the switchblock a little. Mines gotten stiff when I've left it in one position too long.


Enjoy and curious to hear a range report.

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by PD3341 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:32 pm

Thwik wrote:
PD3341 wrote:We chose a system! When it was all said and done, our department funded the purchase of Noveske shorty lights with switchblocks. We are using AAC M4 2000 cans with them. Has anyone have any thoughts or experience with this set up and face gas?
I've got the exact same setup.

Image


I'm definitely a fan of it. As a lefty, I don't run the gasbuster, just the regular (non raised) BCM CH, and in the suppressed setting, it shoots great. Might be a little more gas than unsuppressed, but nothing like other suppressed rigs I've shot.

One thing to keep in mind, if you are shooting these suppressed a lot, maybe every range session, just work the switchblock a little. Mines gotten stiff when I've left it in one position too long.


Enjoy and curious to hear a range report.
Thanks for the feedback! I'll complete a range report when they are delivered.

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by JohnnyC » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:47 pm

You probably could have saved some money by going with just a barrel swap with a reduced gas port. There aren't many "wear" items in an upper receiver. This also wouldn't limit you to using Noveske rails with the Switchblock cutout, you could use whatever rail fits your needs best. Replace the barrel and bolt with a more reasonably sized gas port, save the taxpayers a bunch of money, and have a new system that's designed to do what you want it to do.

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by DarkPhoenix » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:22 am

I love my noveske 10.5" switchblock. I went with the stainless barrel, but it is basically the same gun. The best thing about the switchblock is the versatility to go between suppressed and nonsuppressed fire. I also have an M4-2000 and the gas blow back is very good, considering the suppressor. Comparing it to my FN scar, the Noveske is a pleasure to shoot. It is very accurate and handles well. You made an excellent decision!


Image

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Re: Need help choosing a new suppressed SWAT rifle

Post by PD3341 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:42 am

JohnnyC wrote:You probably could have saved some money by going with just a barrel swap with a reduced gas port. There aren't many "wear" items in an upper receiver. This also wouldn't limit you to using Noveske rails with the Switchblock cutout, you could use whatever rail fits your needs best. Replace the barrel and bolt with a more reasonably sized gas port, save the taxpayers a bunch of money, and have a new system that's designed to do what you want it to do.

We explored this option extensively and even built a demo model. However for a couple of reasons we could not complete a barrel swap. First, our guns had already been factory rebuilt once and we were having major issues with our lowers too. Second, the department's attorneys did not like the idea of "custom" built guns with no manufacturer backing. Finally the tax payers did not pay for these guns, but drug dealers did. They were purchased with seized drug funds and Noveske gave us a great price on the rifles. I like how you think and would do this swap if it were my own gun.

Thanks

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