Proof of subsonic ammo effectiveness?

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wacki
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Proof of subsonic ammo effectiveness?

Post by wacki »

Just wondering where the good comparisons are.... if any. Particularly 300BLK, 9mm and .45 ACP

I found some videos on .22 LR subsonics


60 grain .22LR vs watermelon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puiv8ptLxNA


22LR Aguila 60gr Sniper Subsonic impacting ballistic gelatin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GwRgIpbflA
Jowijtawe
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Re: Proof of subsonic ammo effectiveness?

Post by Jowijtawe »

You can just compare the specs. For a single shot, 300BLK subsonic = 45 ACP > 9mm in terms of terminal performance. If you want specifics and you believe in temporary cavity, Brass Fetcher's videos are pretty good. If you don't believe in temporary cavity, then momentum numbers are good enough.

EDIT: actually scratch that, I just remembered that there are some seriously performant subsonic hollowpoints for 308 (for their weight and speed). 300BLK > 45 ACP > 9mm.
Last edited by Jowijtawe on Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Capt. Link.
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Re: Proof of subsonic ammo effectiveness?

Post by Capt. Link. »

Subsonic performance is different than total energy. A .45acp has far more terminal effectiveness than a a 300blk do to the size of it's metplate.A flat-point on a subsonic 300blk will raise its crush cavity and terminal performance.The ability of a bullet to tumble upon impact also increases it's effectiveness because of the length of the wound track.You don't have the temporary cavity of a supersonic round so the diameter of the wound and the depth or amount of flesh involved is all important in subsonic performance.Your 60gr .22 has more energy for penetration and is superior compared to a 29gr load.A trick that I have used for years on .22s is to file a flat point on the tip to raise its killing ability and I use nothing but .22 short subsonic and am well fed. If you plan on using a subsonic projectile on lets say deer this season use a large caliber bullet with a flat point that weighs allot for maximum terminal performance.

A spire point bullet with a boatail tends to travel base first after a hit in flesh and thus tumble while a flat point will travel deep and straight neither will expand at subsonic velocity's even if made of pure lead with any style tip.If you hunt use the most lethal combination you can manage.If you need a flat pointing fixture for your .22 ammo I can make a few for the needy.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
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doubloon
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Re: Proof of subsonic ammo effectiveness?

Post by doubloon »

Several members have found subsonic 300 to be extremely effective on targets like feral hogs and deer at a respectable range. Transposing that effectiveness to similar size targets is a simple exercise.

For 9mm is the discussion limited to 9mm Luger or is it open to any 9mm caliber regardless of case size?

With the exception of a few gimmicky "defense" rounds or firing some lightweight projectiles out of 8"+ barrels all the 45ACP I've ever run across is subsonic so just what exactly would 45ACP subsonic effectiveness be compared to ... 45ACP sub-subsonic?

Discussing the "proof of subsonic ammo effectiveness" without any context of range or target doesn't seem like a very productive exercise. If we limiting the discussion of effectiveness to fleshy fruits and jello then I, for one, have found most any caliber propelled at sufficient velocity to penetrate the the target is also very effective at eliminating the threat from said fruits and jellos, it's usually a "one shot stop". In fact, I have successfully used a number of calibers at various velocities to eliminate the threat from many fruits and jellos without contacting the target at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
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wacki
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Re: Proof of subsonic ammo effectiveness?

Post by wacki »

doubloon wrote:Discussing the "proof of subsonic ammo effectiveness" without any context of range or target doesn't seem like a very productive exercise.
I'm learning a lot. I find open ended questions much more effective at fostering discussion than pinning the other person down with yes/no type answers.
If we limiting the discussion of effectiveness to fleshy fruits and jello then I, for one, have found most any caliber propelled at sufficient velocity to penetrate the the target is also very effective at eliminating the threat from said fruits and jellos, it's usually a "one shot stop". In fact, I have successfully used a number of calibers at various velocities to eliminate the threat from many fruits and jellos without contacting the target at all.
That is awesome. I had no idea that was possible.

To be blatantly honest with you I was simply watching Walking Dead and started to wonder how effective my 9mm 147 grain ammo would be against Zombies. Then I wondered about it's effectiveness in a home invasion scenario. Then I looked at my 1911 and thought about the Octane 45 I have in NFA purgatory. Then I thought about my Spectre II and Essence in purgatory. Then I thought about the Leonidas I just made a down payment on. So I started googling and found a few fruit videos but not much else.

So this convo can go a lot of ways. As long as I'm learning, you are happy posting and it's remotely on topic I'm pretty easy to please.
.300WinMag
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Re: Proof of subsonic ammo effectiveness?

Post by .300WinMag »

A) terminal effectiveness - without knowing where you are in the continuum of knowledge - start toward the beginning - google and read about the 'FBI Miami Shootout' and the subsequent projectile testing protocols that resulted from the incident. Seek out info from 'Doc GKR' from there.

B) in general penetration > expansion

C) effectiveness is based on major loss of hydrostatic pressure (bleed out) or shutting down the electrical grid (CNS) - all ultimately relate to placement - there are some pretty compelling autopsy photos floating around of a motivated banger that was high on THC (only) and took a LOT of damage from heavy 5.56 loads as well as .40 - all at a realatively close range - the AAR made it clear - gotta make quality hits / placement trumps all

D) RE: 230's & 147's all quality SD ammo manufacturer's provide data based on current FBI protocols that you can review. Confirm parity with the test barrel length and your own
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Artful
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Re: Proof of subsonic ammo effectiveness?

Post by Artful »

You might look thru some of these
http://www.youtube.com/user/BrassFetcher/videos
examples

22LR CCI 40gr Segmented Subsonic slow motion ballistic gelatin
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIsQp6kcyiM

22LR Aguila 60gr Sniper Subsonic impacting ballistic gelatin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GwRgIpbflA

380 ACP 90 grn gold dot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxmq5oF0yT4

38 Special Federal 148gr Gold Medal Match Wadcutter versus gelatin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yYYeICHamc

9mm 147grn TAP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCjFgnr-jQM

SLOW MOTION 9x19mm Luger Remington 147gr Golden Saber
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKC832xZ6RA

45ACP CCI Blazer 230gr FMJ impacting ballistic gelatin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G-txVKnVjY

.45 ACP 230 GoldDot impacting ballistic gelatin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2taJFU1vG8

SLOW MOTION 45ACP Remington 230gr Golden Saber impacting ballistic gelatin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe6hEcdki_8

45ACP Hornady 230gr +P XTP slow motion ballistic gelatin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEQOiEPMJ9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwAbIdamK2A
SLOW MOTION 45ACP Federal 230gr Hydra-Shok impacting ballistic gelatin

45 Colt cowboy load
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6ViPtnDnOk
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