What exactly do the NFA Examiners check and how?

[Prince Yamato]

I've done this 3 times. The NFA wait is beyond ridiculous. I honestly want to know, what do they do that is different than a 4473? What information do they check that cannot be checked instantly by the FBI? Do they simply just run a NICS check from their office, stamp "approve" and then send the Form 4s to the dealer, then require us to get another NICS check? Any information about an applicant should be at the examiner's fingertips.

Seriously, volume aside, what takes so long?

[Historian]

I've done this 3 times. The NFA wait is beyond ridiculous. I honestly want to know, what do they do that is different than a 4473? What information do they check that cannot be checked instantly by the FBI? Do they simply just run a NICS check from their office, stamp "approve" and then send the Form 4s to the dealer, then require us to get another NICS check? Any information about an applicant should be at the examiner's fingertips.

Seriously, volume aside, what takes so long?

One answer can be inferred by sitting in 10 mile traffic for hours at the Bourne
Bridge, Cape Cod, during roasting day Summer traffic, one lane closed for 'repair', team of
the original 1935 construction crew drinking coffee and staring at the great view, two
of the constabulary ensuring that the rotary merging traffic jams up to a stand still.

Or South Boston's O'Shaughnessy's Law ( cousin of Murphy): "Where there is a hole
in a street there is a cop looking into it rather than facilitating traffic."

[Prince Yamato]

I understand that some of it is because they are using an 80 year-old process for the check. Seriously though, there has to be more to it. Can we use FOIA or something to figure out the EXACT process?

[renegade]

I've done this 3 times. The NFA wait is beyond ridiculous. I honestly want to know, what do they do that is different than a 4473? What information do they check that cannot be checked instantly by the FBI? Do they simply just run a NICS check from their office, stamp "approve" and then send the Form 4s to the dealer, then require us to get another NICS check? Any information about an applicant should be at the examiner's fingertips.

Seriously, volume aside, what takes so long?

Well the most obvious is the NFA guns are registered, non-NFA guns are not. So they check to make sure the gun on your form really exists and is registered to the transferor.

Then they actually run your fingerprints through the FBI Criminal Master File looking for hits. That is not done on 4473 either.

There are some more steps but it would seem obvious if you thought about it.

The wait of course is the 50,000 forms ahead of yours, not the process.

[rckshrk]

I've done this 3 times. The NFA wait is beyond ridiculous. I honestly want to know, what do they do that is different than a 4473? What information do they check that cannot be checked instantly by the FBI? Do they simply just run a NICS check from their office, stamp "approve" and then send the Form 4s to the dealer, then require us to get another NICS check? Any information about an applicant should be at the examiner's fingertips.

Seriously, volume aside, what takes so long?

Well the most obvious is the NFA guns are registered, non-NFA guns are not. So they check to make sure the gun on your form really exists and is registered to the transferor.

Then they actually run your fingerprints through the FBI Criminal Master File looking for hits. That is not done on 4473 either.

There are some more steps but it would seem obvious if you thought about it.

The wait of course is the 50,000 forms ahead of yours, not the process.

I've seen CSI , the longest part of the process should be data entry followed by hitting enter while the rest is automatically done in a matter of minutes. I've come to the conclusion that it's slow because they want it to be slow and they have no desire to make it any faster. In fact, I believe that it's in their best interest for it to be a slow and extended process... Simply put, job security.

[renegade]

I've done this 3 times. The NFA wait is beyond ridiculous. I honestly want to know, what do they do that is different than a 4473? What information do they check that cannot be checked instantly by the FBI? Do they simply just run a NICS check from their office, stamp "approve" and then send the Form 4s to the dealer, then require us to get another NICS check? Any information about an applicant should be at the examiner's fingertips.

Seriously, volume aside, what takes so long?

Well the most obvious is the NFA guns are registered, non-NFA guns are not. So they check to make sure the gun on your form really exists and is registered to the transferor.

Then they actually run your fingerprints through the FBI Criminal Master File looking for hits. That is not done on 4473 either.

There are some more steps but it would seem obvious if you thought about it.

The wait of course is the 50,000 forms ahead of yours, not the process.

I've seen CSI , the longest part of the process should be data entry followed by hitting enter while the rest is automatically done in a matter of minutes. I've come to the conclusion that it's slow because they want it to be slow and they have no desire to make it any faster. In fact, I believe that it's in their best interest for it to be a slow and extended process... Simply put, job security.

Well if Congress should ever pass a revised budget, maybe they will include $$$ for new examiners. Till then we are stuck with the same number of examiners, despite a 10x increase in forms.

[Libertarian_Geek]

...
Well the most obvious is the NFA guns are registered, non-NFA guns are not. So they check to make sure the gun on your form really exists and is registered to the transferor.

Then they actually run your fingerprints through the FBI Criminal Master File looking for hits. That is not done on 4473 either.

There are some more steps but it would seem obvious if you thought about it.

The wait of course is the 50,000 forms ahead of yours, not the process.

Checking to see if the gun on my form exists should be a database query. The response should be measured in ms. The action taken by the examiner afterwards should be measured in seconds.

Trusts (today and historically) haven't required fingerprint cards, so that point is moot.

50,000 forms ahead of yours represents 50,000x that a single process improvement will help.

I once worked with a lady who when I tried to help her improve her process refused and declared that job-security was the reason she didn't want the improvement. She was laid-off within the year. Her boss who defended her no longer works for my company either. Then again, I work in the private sector.

[Tony M.]

Yup, the private sector works differently than the .gov

In the private sector, there is someone who is interested in saving the company money and making things more efficient and profitable. In .gov work, there is a vested interest in ensuring that the status quo remains unchanged.

[renegade]

It takes less than 10 minutes to process the forms. As I have pointed out, the problem is the forms to examiner ratio. Better processes will have almost no effect.

[Libertarian_Geek]

It takes less than 10 minutes to process the forms. As I have pointed out, the problem is the forms to examiner ratio. Better processes will have almost no effect.

So, it follows that if the problem is the form:examiner ration, and it takes X time to process the forms, then X/2 is have the time.

If you could cut 10 minutes down to 2 or 3, then for 50K forms, it would be significantly faster. Better yet, the if it was automated, the system could automatically reject a form that didn't match up in serial number, manufacturer etc. You'd only need people to handle the mail and place stamps on forms as dictated by the application.

I seriously doubt that the process is up to private sector standards for automation and efficiency. That's all I'm saying.

[ericlw]

Have you seen the speed at which the workers at the post office run at?I have never seen anyone move so slow on purpose in my life.

Besides they have their smoke break,lunch,social break time also.

[Prince Yamato]

What I'd really like to know is the EXACT process. Has anyone ever called and asked? As in, "Hey Jason Bowers, can you tell me what the exact process you use is and why does it take you so long? Also, what can we do to help speed the process up for you? What money towards computerization help?"

I understand that the volume of forms has increased and the examiners have decreased. I'm looking for alternate solutions that could fix the problem. Why couldn't there be state-based agencies that take over the paperwork? What about things like having a CHL that exempts you from having to call in a 4473 means you can have your Form 4 checked by a state agency or something similar that has federal reciprocity?

Government is slow/stupid/thanks Obama. I understand all that, but that doesn't preclude the fact that there could be a better way to manage the whole database/process. Is this stuff still all paper-based?

[Bendersquint]

What I'd really like to know is the EXACT process. Has anyone ever called and asked? As in, "Hey Jason Bowers, can you tell me what the exact process you use is and why does it take you so long? Also, what can we do to help speed the process up for you? What money towards computerization help?"

I understand that the volume of forms has increased and the examiners have decreased. I'm looking for alternate solutions that could fix the problem. Why couldn't there be state-based agencies that take over the paperwork? What about things like having a CHL that exempts you from having to call in a 4473 means you can have your Form 4 checked by a state agency or something similar that has federal reciprocity?

Government is slow/stupid/thanks Obama. I understand all that, but that doesn't preclude the fact that there could be a better way to manage the whole database/process. Is this stuff still all paper-based?

First off you won't get a straight answer if you get an answer at all. There are fond of NDA's..

Renegade is right, it doesn't take very long to do the actual approval, there are just thousands and thousands of people in front of you in line.

NFA is like an emergency room, everyone that goes there HAS to get seen as fast as humanly possible, whether they need to be seen immediately of they are just purely impatient...but see the waiting room is absolutely full and a steady stream of people behind you.

There will never be state agencies that will do it or be authorized to process them the logistics would be a nightmare to say the least.

Besides that fact WHO is going to pay for it without increasing the tax significantly to covers said costs? Are you willing to pay a $250-$500 surcharge to have them process it locally? Who will fund the FBI for running the local prints?

They ARE improving how they do business and it is working, the reason you aren't seeing the time change is that the volume is going through the roof and it takes time to see the changes overall.

[este]

Has anyone ever called and asked? As in, "Hey Jason Bowers, can you tell me what the exact process you use is and why does it take you so long? Also, what can we do to help speed the process up for you?

OMG Government isn't efficient! Maybe I can loan them my PC?

Seriously... just stop and wait your turn like everyone else.

[rjacobs]

Its posted here or somewhere else basically what goes on, but they wont really tell you the real steps. From what I remember:
-data entry person enters your form into the computer, you then go "pending" to an examiner who gets your packet.
-Your assigned examiner FINALLY gets to your packet and sends a copy of your Form 1 and one of the finger print cards over to the FBI.
-The FBI process's the fingerprints and does the background check along with the other 100 million or so that they do every year(this takes the majority of the time I believe).
-The FBI sends your stuff back
-The clerk has to marry your Form and fingerprint card back into your packet and then put it back in the que for the examiner
-The examiner, again, FINALLY gets your packet from the que and goes over a check list to make sure everything is in order
-If it is, Form approved. If its not, letter of correction or outright denial.

Now there are 10's of thousands of form 1 and 4's. These same examiners also process all the Form 2's, 3's and 5's.

This process may be slightly different because I believe they hired some assistant's that do quite a bit of the stuff now to "in theory" speed up the process. I think the "pending approval" means that one of the assistants has basically gone through the checklist the examiner used to and then they give it to the examiner to finalize. I think this cuts out a lot of the form's that are problem status or denials. I dont know if those ever hit the examiner desk anymore.

I agree this process could be automated, but the .gov wont even give them any money to hire additional examiners, you think they will give them millions of dollars to build a computer system capable of doing what needs to be done for an item that they want banned anyway? Even if they got money to develop a computer system to do NFA stuff instantly, it would take a decade to implement.

[Bendersquint]

Its posted here or somewhere else basically what goes on, but they wont really tell you the real steps. From what I remember:
-data entry person enters your form into the computer, you then go "pending" to an examiner who gets your packet.
-Your assigned examiner FINALLY gets to your packet and sends a copy of your Form 1 and one of the finger print cards over to the FBI.
-The FBI process's the fingerprints and does the background check along with the other 100 million or so that they do every year(this takes the majority of the time I believe).
-The FBI sends your stuff back
-The clerk has to marry your Form and fingerprint card back into your packet and then put it back in the que for the examiner
-The examiner, again, FINALLY gets your packet from the que and goes over a check list to make sure everything is in order
-If it is, Form approved. If its not, letter of correction or outright denial.

Now there are 10's of thousands of form 1 and 4's. These same examiners also process all the Form 2's, 3's and 5's.

This process may be slightly different because I believe they hired some assistant's that do quite a bit of the stuff now to "in theory" speed up the process. I think the "pending approval" means that one of the assistants has basically gone through the checklist the examiner used to and then they give it to the examiner to finalize. I think this cuts out a lot of the form's that are problem status or denials. I dont know if those ever hit the examiner desk anymore.

I agree this process could be automated, but the .gov wont even give them any money to hire additional examiners, you think they will give them millions of dollars to build a computer system capable of doing what needs to be done for an item that they want banned anyway? Even if they got money to develop a computer system to do NFA stuff instantly, it would take a decade to implement.

The gist is there but the one significant error in the text above is that the FBI does NOT receive a copy of the Form1/4, they only get boxes of fingerprints(both copies that are submitted). They run the prints and then keep one and return the other with a printout back to the NFA.

[rjacobs]

The gist is there but the one significant error in the text above is that the FBI does NOT receive a copy of the Form1/4, they only get boxes of fingerprints(both copies that are submitted). They run the prints and then keep one and return the other with a printout back to the NFA.

Was going off memory of what I read a year or so ago. I thought I read they got a copy of the form so that it went back to the proper place and married back up with the proper packet once they(the FBI) was done with it.

But either way you are constantly in one of several LONG LONG LONG LONG queue's and that is why it takes so damn long.

[Snake-eater 1]

Former member Diomed wrote a detailed post on this several years ago. He actually visited the West Va. office if I remember correctly. I'll not fight the "cannot conduct search at this time" nonsense, but someone else may wish to try.

[Bendersquint]

Former member Diomed wrote a detailed post on this several years ago. He actually visited the West Va. office if I remember correctly. I'll not fight the "cannot conduct search at this time" nonsense, but someone else may wish to try.

It has changed a bit since Diomed wrote that post. RIP.

[Historian]

Or, consider a suppressor just an add on to a firearm, like a scope or
hand made custom grips, or even a new barrel. Perhaps some
wise soul at ATF will remove its acquisition from the vetting process
and at most just require that its purchaser show I.D. to
a dealer to buy it, like a firearm. Gosh!

This time wasting Federal minutiae madness reminds me of Board Walk Empire where
during Prohibition era Federal resources were wasted lavishly
and needlessly. Silencers as NFA devices are vestiges of a time when
condoms were illegal to sell and Hollywood had film censors. Cut Costs.
Raise the ATF employees salary with the savings from new efficilency.

Cui Bono?

[Armorer-at-Law]

Perhaps some wise soul at ATF will remove its acquisition from the vetting process and at most just require that its purchaser show I.D. to a dealer to buy it, like a firearm.

ATF cannot amend federal law to move silencers from Title II to Title I. Only Congress can do that.

[paper9]

I wrote a letter to my congressperson about that, and I have not heard back, as yet. Its been a couple of weeks.

[Libertarian_Geek]

Perhaps some wise soul at ATF will remove its acquisition from the vetting process and at most just require that its purchaser show I.D. to a dealer to buy it, like a firearm.

ATF cannot amend federal law to move silencers from Title II to Title I. Only Congress can do that.

Since, like most government rule making agencies, the ATF makes their own dictionary, sure they can effectively remove silencers from the reach of the NFA. They just change the definition to a device which completely silences a gun.

...of course, they'd never use their powers of dictionary re-writing to do something that would benefit us.

[Bendersquint]

Perhaps some wise soul at ATF will remove its acquisition from the vetting process and at most just require that its purchaser show I.D. to a dealer to buy it, like a firearm.

ATF cannot amend federal law to move silencers from Title II to Title I. Only Congress can do that.

Since, like most government rule making agencies, the ATF makes their own dictionary, sure they can effectively remove silencers from the reach of the NFA. They just change the definition to a device which completely silences a gun.

...of course, they'd never use their powers of dictionary re-writing to do something that would benefit us.

And they can't remove the requirement for registration from federal law.....they can say all they want(and they do) but can't change law, only way cans come off the list is an act of Congress.....literally.

[Libertarian_Geek]

Right. They cannot change the law without an act of congress. But they can and do change the dictionary when it suits them.

e.g.: Shoestring to Machinegun
e.g.: Silencer parts to Silencer

Unfortunately for us, ATF's definitions never change in the least restrictive direction.