General silencer discussion. If you want to talk about a specific silenced rifle or pistol, it is best to do that in the rifle or pistol section for that brand.
I was reading the public comments on the proposed rule changes and noted that several of them seemed to be a form letter in support of the rule changes. A simple Google search yielded this:
GRNC is encouraging its readers to submit the following to ATF/DOJ:
"In the matter of 27 CFR Part 479 docket number ATF 41P Part 479, RIN: 1140-AA43, Machine Guns, Destructive Devices and Certain Other Firearms; Background Checks for responsible Persons of a Corporation, Trust or Other Legal Entity With Respect to Making or transferring a Firearm:
We agree with the ATF proposal requiring fingerprints and mug shot of all adult applicants or responsible party of a trust or LLC acquiring NFA firearms. The above process would ensure that NFA firearms are not acquired by any prohibited person(s).
That being said, we are opposed to any expansion requirement mandating CLEO certification as outlined within the docket. The simple change in verbiage proposed by ATF, in our experience would not encourage CLEOs to process applicant paperwork; as there are too many perceived liabilities, political, and professional ramifications associated with NFA firearm acquisition. These perceptions have resulted in a measureable decrease of CLEO endorsed transfers, which has attributed to the explosive popularity of Trusts and LLC NFA applications.
The resources available to ATF/NFA including but not limiting to NCIC, TECS, NLETS, III, and NICBCS databases more than adequately ensure that all applicants are fully screened. If any CLEO involvement were required by ATF/NFA the only acceptable process should be CLEO notification post procurement.
This could be accomplished by requiring the successful application to provide the CLEO with a copy of the federal transfer paperwork, or by requiring the name and address of the CLEO being listed on the application form. This name and address would allow ATF/NFA to mail a copy of the applicant’s form to said applicants CLEO upon successful execution of the transfer.
Respectfully,"
GRNC is demonstrating a total lack of understanding of why legal entities must be treated differently from individuals, and their letter does nothing to address the serious flaws in ATF's current proposed definition of a Responsible Person. Please encourage your friends and family NOT to use this form letter!
This is so stupid. A prohibited person who possesses a firearm, even if lawfully owned by a legal entity of which he is some member or beneficiary, is still breaking the law. It is just as illegal for him to possess that gun as it would be for one he bought out of the trunk of someone's car.
This is your correspondent, running out of tape, gunfire's increasing, looting, burning, rape.
I've got a thread over in TheHighRoad. Seems like they are a legitimate organization. They are also offended by our position and demanding an apology from me. I will refuse until they edit that sentence or win SilencerTalk's and NFAtalks approval.
I understand that vast majority of what they do is pro-gun but I'm out numbered on that forum. If I have to drag the girlfriend (who is on my trust) to the station to get fingerprinted for each and every one of my pending stamps I'm going to be so screwed. She is luke-warm towards my hobby. Given how much I spend on this sport and that she was anti-gun when I met her, luke-warm is a huge win for me.
Even though the ATF did not list a single violent crime this would be effective against, we will support the fingerprinting and photographing of all trustees ONLY IF it's done during the amendment period and not with each purchase. Fingerprints are good for life and photographs should be good for at least as long as a passport (10 years). This would minimize unreasonable burdens on law abiding NFA collectors and their families while ensuring prohibited persons don't slip through the cracks. The extended timelines for fingerprints and photographs should apply to individual transfers as well.
Thread got closed because THR has always been a bunch of FUDDs.
That Delta1 guy is nutty. Who the F--k does he think he is, demanding that you write a letter of apology to the GRNC board of directors? What a douchebag.
The GRNC position, as stated in that thread, is basically "We think the ATF is going to change a bunch of rules, so we are focusing on fighting the one we think is most harmful." That's a reasonable stance, but the correct thing to do in that case would be to make their comment solely focus on the bad parts of CLEO signoff, and not include any sort of endorsement of the other proposed rule changes. When you think 3 bad things are about to happen, and you want to fight one, you fight the one. You don't endorse the other two in the process.
Al Thompsons comment is the key to their odd behavior. Theory: They are selling the rest of the country down the river for their benefit.
They have a LEO problem in both North Carolina and South Carolina. So, they are forcing 37 states to make big compromises so they can gain a little freedom.
I understand that position. But I have absolutely zero respect for the deception and their refusal to answer my questions about how many times I should drag my entire family to the police station to be fingerprinted. That is not the behavior of honest men.
Conqueror wrote:That Delta1 guy is nutty. Who the F--k does he think he is, demanding that you write a letter of apology to the GRNC board of directors? What a douchebag.
I loved his suggestion that I give my girlfriend a $10,000 gift every time I want to buy a machine gun. $1,000 for a suppressor. etc.... These are basically payments or bribes for permission to have a gun.
My girlfriend would lose all respect for me if I did that. She laughed at his comment.
I live in NC and GRNC has indeed been helpful in the 2A and NFA fight in the past. And I do hope that if changes MUST be implemented, they do the fingerprints instead of the CLEO signoff. But the comment period isn't the time to admit that. ATF has a legal requirement to address all comments, so this is the time to make ALL our wishes heard, not the "third-best scenario acquiescence." I don't know if they have an attorney on retainer, but I think they should have consulted a few before making this form letter.
For all those reading this thread. I could of really used some moral support at TheHighRoad.org. Although I received some support, I felt like I was alone. NFA folks need to stick together. A new thread will be opened up there soon. Currently debating the mods.
Last edited by wacki on Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Conqueror wrote:I live in NC and GRNC has indeed been helpful in the 2A and NFA fight in the past. And I do hope that if changes MUST be implemented, they do the fingerprints instead of the CLEO signoff. But the comment period isn't the time to admit that. ATF has a legal requirement to address all comments, so this is the time to make ALL our wishes heard, not the "third-best scenario acquiescence." I don't know if they have an attorney on retainer, but I think they should have consulted a few before making this form letter.
Well this supports the theory that they are selling the freedoms of others for their own gain. They threw a lot of name calling my way and refused to answer my questions about how many times I should fingerprint my entire family. If that's the game they want to play, then I've lost all respect for them. Honest men don't do that.
Sucks to hear about your LEO problem. But that doesn't excuse their deception.
I think you're probably wasting your time. I used to be pretty active on THR, but the more knowledgeable I became about firearms in general and NFA in specific, the more I realized that most of them are idiots who are primarily interested in hunting rifles and granpappy's revolver. You're not going to change the minds of the FUDDs, and the mods there aggressively close any thread with even a hint of debate, because they believe in the false equivalence of debate and "the low road."
... The above process would ensure that NFA firearms are not acquired by any prohibited person(s).
...
This is groundbreaking!
I don't know why anyone hasn't tried this or at least thought of it before. It's so simple!
All you need to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals is a process!
Wow ... I'm stunned.
f#$%tards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
Conqueror wrote:I think you're probably wasting your time. I used to be pretty active on THR, but the more knowledgeable I became about firearms in general and NFA in specific, the more I realized that most of them are idiots who are primarily interested in hunting rifles and granpappy's revolver. You're not going to change the minds of the FUDDs, and the mods there aggressively close any thread with even a hint of debate, because they believe in the false equivalence of debate and "the low road."
I'm ok with wasting my time on this. And I'm not worried about THR. I'm worried about the pro-NFA group in NC that believes this is an appropriate form letter. I've reached out to a few gun trust lawyers in Texas. They are NOT happy.
I've also reached out to the NRA-ILA, American Silencer Association and a few manufacturers.
At this point in time I'm sitting back and letting the professionals investigate this. I'll give them a few days to mull this over and calm down. I'm waiting for clear and professional heads to analyze this situation and give me their feedback. Then I'll decide on my next course of action.
I talked to a few more lawyers today. One has 10+ years of experience on capital hill doing this kind of work. Nobody I've talked to feels this form letter is appropriate. A recurring theme is that you "Don't negotiate in public". I'll post some quotes when I get permission. I'm not the first person to try to reach out to these guys either.
If anyone wants to reach out and say "WTF are you doing?" here are some contacts:
