9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

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9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by wacki »

Not sure how much of this is hype but these quotes worry me. Buckey firearms has an excellent study here. So I try to keep things in perspective. Still, thoughts on the below?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 117AAbL1QM
The ballistics on the 147 gr Subsonic load in 9mm are very, very close to the old 38 Special 158gr Round Nose loads that were nicknamed "Widowmakers," not because of their effectiveness, but the opposite! These weak old rounds were carried by cops for a hundred years.


http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/32019 ... r-rnl.html
Seriously folks, while there is some utility in 38 Spl round nose bullets, it's pretty limited in practical applications. In Police circles, the 38 RN loading was called "The Widowmaker", and for good reason, stopping power was abysmal, unless you made perfect hits under stress, you may as well stab your assailant with a pencil. Semi-wadcutter ammo improved your odds of making it home safely at night, and quality hollowpoint ammo really improved your chances. Still, many departments required the lowly RNL bullet. Some officers would load their revolvers with RNL for inspection, and then reload with privately purchased hollowpoint ammo for the street. Others would load their revolvers with target wadcutter ammo, which actually had greater stopping power. If caught, they would claim that they must have forgotten (wink, wink) to change back to duty ammo after range practice. Some officers even cut X's in the noses of the bullets so they'd expand and fragment if they were involved in a shooting. When cops go to this much effort to turn the odds in their favor, you need to accept that the 38 Spl RNL is bot a manstopper, and shouldn't be considered for such use. As far as shooting cute little bunny wabbits, an Idaho cowboy whose name escapes me (Keef, or something like that), said the same thing, and more about the 38 Spl. His remarks about law enforcement use are especially scathing.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by jlwilliams »

9mm subsonics aren't ideal for defensive loads. They are ideal for shooting through a suppressed weapon. Great for offense, lousy for defense.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by johndoe3 »

It seems to me that there is a huge difference in results comparing 9mm 147gr RN bullets to JHP bullets; and in JHP bullets there is a significant gap in results comparing the best to the lower performing 9mm 147gr JHP bullets.

Hornady developed Critical Duty ammo to exceed the FBI's battery of tests; and there they have a 135gr bullet going 1010 fps, which is about the same as most 9mm 147gr JHP bullets going 950-1000fps. The only difference with most JHP bullets is that Hornady uses elastic polymer in the HP of the bullets so that it doesn't get clogged up, a mechanical locking of the jacket to the core, and scoring of the jacket to assure consistent expansion.

My view is that 147gr 9mm can be a great defense load if one has the better JHP bullets.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by rimshaker »

Here's some data and pictures on Winchester Ranger T ammo. The heavier 9mm subsonic 147gr actually penetrates deeper than +p and +p+ versions. It's what I use for carry ammo. Pretty scary stuff. 9mm JHP defensive rounds have come a loooong way since earlier times.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectio ... bullit.swf
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by continuity »

I'm not gonna intentionaly do the rain on parade/derail thing, but a pistol round, any pistol round, is just that.... a pistol round. Various degrees of penetration/energy dump... but all the sweat, tears, and fustration over, this is better, that's best, what's the most awesome... result in a discussion in a vacuum over the effectiveness of a... pistol round.

The effectiveness of a pistol round is most importantly discussed with shot placement. A 147 grn 9mm round is a good round, as is a .38 special, .45acp, sig357, ad nasium. The interest is in what can you place on target.

Ideally, if such a word can be used in a life or death scenario, a pistol is best used to fight your way to a 12g or rifle.

Back to the regularly scheduled channel on what's the best pistol round....
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by doubloon »

continuity wrote:... shot placements. ....
As applied to pistols, never shoot just one.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by JasonM »

wacki wrote:Not sure how much of this is hype but these quotes worry me.
Are you really quoting and referencing yahoo answers?

I also fail to see any real world utility in that 'excellent' buckeye study since it has no tracking of type of bullets used, and if we follow its statistics, we should consider carrying pistols in .22(short, long, and LR) because it is listed as the pistol with the highest fatalities AND lowest number of shots to incapacitation. It goes on to say that the majority of 9mm cases they used were ball ammo, an admittedly poorly-performing round. And it concludes saying that there's no real 'winner' in the caliber debate… not sure how any of this would lead you to your topic...

You have to be kidding us, or just continuing work on your post count.

It should be no surprise to anyone that round nose FMJ is a bad self-defense choice.

Further, if you did any real research, you would find that there are a handful of incredibly effective 147gr 9mm (JHP) loads that are recommend at or near the top of performance lists… Look up some research by people like Dr. Gary Roberts, etc.

147gr Win Ranger-T, Fed HST, Speer Gold Dot, etc. All are among the top-performing and recommended bullets in 9mm. The 124gr - 147gr all perform better than lighter bullets. Heavier bullets also tend to perform much better through intermediate barriers like glass, etc.

FMJ in any pistol round has terrible terminal ballistics. If you are using FMJ in any weight for personal defense, you have made some really bad decisions.

And, yes, if you ever quote or come across the terms "stopping power" or "manstopper" in regards to any pistols (and most rifles), it is BS.
Like most others here have said, pistols are pistols, shot placement is 95% of the battle.

more detail:
Please note that all of the recommended pistol loads listed below have been personally tested and vetted by Dr. Roberts. THEY ARE NOT IN ORDER OF PERFORMANCE, SO ANY BULLET ON THE LIST IS CONSIDERED ACCEPTABLE.


9mm
Barnes XPB 115gr HP (35515) such as loaded by Cor-Bon (DPX09115)
Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 124 gr +P JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA)
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Speer Gold Dor 124gr JHP
Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P (53617)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP (53619)
Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Federal Tactical 124gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal Tactical 135gr JHP +P (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)
Federal HST 124gr JHP +P (P9HST3)
You might notice that the list does NOT include any lightweight bullets with the exception of the Barnes 115gr version. The reason - especially if you've read the beginning of this article - should be clear already, but Doctor Roberts sums it up nicely as well: "With the exception of the Barnes 115 gr XPB all copper projectile, in general, most 9 mm 115 gr loads have demonstrated greater inconsistency, insufficient penetration, poor intermediate barrier capability, and failure to expand in denim testing than other 9mm bullets. For those individuals wanting to use lighter weight, supersonic 9 mm’s, I think a better alternative than the vast majority of 115 gr loads is to use the slightly heavier 124 to 127 gr bullets or the Barnes 115 gr all copper bullet"
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by doubloon »

JasonM wrote:
wacki wrote:Not sure how much of this is hype but these quotes worry me.
Are you really quoting and referencing yahoo answers?
...
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I didn't even look at or follow the links until I read this.

He's not even quoting the selected answer, he's quoting panama joe who says glaser and magsafe are the shiznitz of SD ammo.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Must be working on post count.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by yellowfin »

Question: given how bad .38 LRN sucked for stopping power, WTF did PD's approve let alone require them?
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by wacki »

rimshaker wrote:Here's some data and pictures on Winchester Ranger T ammo. The heavier 9mm subsonic 147gr actually penetrates deeper than +p and +p+ versions. It's what I use for carry ammo. Pretty scary stuff. 9mm JHP defensive rounds have come a loooong way since earlier times.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectio ... bullit.swf

cool site. Too bad it doesn't show the momentary cavity.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by continuity »

yellowfin wrote:Question: given how bad .38 LRN sucked for stopping power, WTF did PD's approve let alone require them?
Because a high speed projectile has negative consequences when is is introduced to the human body. If you're looking for stopping power... check out a Ford F150.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by Historian »

continuity wrote:
yellowfin wrote:Question: given how bad .38 LRN sucked for stopping power, WTF did PD's approve let alone require them?
Because a high speed projectile has negative consequences when is is introduced to the human body. If you're looking for stopping power... check out a Ford F150.
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In all seriousness on this topic, why would one not rely
on the venerable and proven .45 ACP if one's going to be
continually in high risk situations?
The HRT does, or used to.

As a superlative Marine's Marine shooter once told me long ago ...
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by Loki_stormbringer »

continuity wrote:
yellowfin wrote:Question: given how bad .38 LRN sucked for stopping power, WTF did PD's approve let alone require them?
Because a high speed projectile has negative consequences when is is introduced to the human body. If you're looking for stopping power... check out a Ford F150.

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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by doubloon »

continuity wrote:... check out a Ford F150.
And with that, this thread is done.

Because this is all that ever needs be said on the stupid topic of handgun caliber related to stopping power.

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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by JasonM »

wacki wrote:
rimshaker wrote:Here's some data and pictures on Winchester Ranger T ammo. The heavier 9mm subsonic 147gr actually penetrates deeper than +p and +p+ versions. It's what I use for carry ammo. Pretty scary stuff. 9mm JHP defensive rounds have come a loooong way since earlier times.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectio ... bullit.swf

cool site. Too bad it doesn't show the momentary cavity.
Just stop while you are behind. I don't think your understanding of all this is where you think it is. There are a number of great resources out there.

The temporary cavity caused by RIFLE bullets is an unreliable wounding mechanism. It can have serious effects on inelastic organs like the liver, but in many cases, it does not significantly impact the overall experience. And that is with high-velocity rifle bullets.

Pistol bullets just don't go fast enough to cause any massive temporary stretch cavity in living targets. The wounding mechanism is the permanent crush cavity.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by whiterussian1974 »

First off, I agree with most everything that posted above.
Next, to answer the ? about why PDs issued .38 RNL 158gr (same as why many chose 9mm over .45); less recoil for smaller statures and deep, yet non-lethal penetration.
My 1st pistol was a S&W 369 13-shot 9mm. My next 4 were Glock .40s in Model-22&23. On all I retrofitted the 3.5# connector rod to lower the trigger pull weight. I also have 5" ported and 5" threaded barrels for special applications.
The Glock .40s actually had less felt recoil because of lower barrel height above frame, superior recoil mechanism and almost all weight in slide (not frame.)
Many Agencies that issued standard ammo also preferred the lower ammo cost and less maintainance required by shooting .38 instead of full power .357. As I recall, at the Prison we used Military Surplus S&W Model 29s with +P .38s. The above was what the Armorer said when Recruits asked your ?.
The Texas State Police use .357 Sigs with Black Talon/Ranger T ammo bought in bulk.
We were also taught about temporary wound cavities and to aim for the Liver/Lung/Heart Nexus, and fire 2 shot groups until the Subject hit the ground. If we had multiple Inmates then we were to fire 1 High-Center on each Inmate and then give extra attention to anyone still standing. Most Inmates hit the ground after the first 2 Inmates are shot.
If looking for stopping power, the .45 Super or .460 Rowland are essentially high-pressure .45 rounds. With proper design the round will penetrate all barriers without seperation. However, each bullet is designed for a specific purpose. Traffic Stops = sheet metal penetration and delayed expansion; Soft Tissue = Maximum expansion in shortest time; In Apartments/Offices/Airplanes = Frangable; etc.
When Departments converted to semis, most went with the high magazine capacity offered by 9mms and used +P+ loads with stiffer recoil springs.
I use .40 200gr Gold dot for suppressed, 165gr Golden Saber for Patrol, 135gr presegmented for Off-Duty carry. I carry on my hip and inner calf for work, SoB or Appendix for Off Duty depending on clothing and whether standing or sitting.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by Tony M. »

yellowfin wrote:Question: given how bad .38 LRN sucked for stopping power, WTF did PD's approve let alone require them?
Fun fact:

When Teddy Roosevelt was the police commissioner for the NYPD way back in the day, he actually had the force move down from .38 revolvers to .32 revolvers (and the .32 colt New Police cartridge was 'born'. It was literally the same thing as the .32 S&W long, but with a flat nosed bullet).

The reason for the change had to do with the officers ability to hit their targets with the .32 revolvers more consistently than they could with the .38's. It seems ole' Teddy believed in the importance of shot placement. I don't know that I would agree with a .32 for a duty weapon, but most bullets when placed properly, are effective.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by jlwilliams »

Way back when, the prevailing wisdom on handgun effectiveness was different than it is today. Countless cops and soldiers carried 32 revolvers and pistols, which seems completely stupid by today's way of thinking. From what I have gleaned from talking to (now 90+ year old) ex-cops and from reading various old sources; the theory during the early 20th century was that a gut shot from a minor caliber pistol would give a change of heart. Someone trying to steal from you would run off if they got a 32 in the belly. It was also deemed more humane to shoot to wound rather than shoot to kill. That was particularly the thinking among police. Combine that thinking with the low recoil of the 32 compared to a 38 in the same size gun, and you get lots of cops and military officers packing 32s. Today's prevailing thinking on defensive shooting is that if you shoot someone and they don't go down immediately, they are more likely to kill you with their last breath than to find Jesus in their heart. Not really drawing any sort of conclusion here. I too had pondered why police and mil used to use such tiny little rounds in yesteryear and did a little digging. Just sharing what I had found.

Seriously side tracking here. It's rightly been said that this thread ran it's course, so I don't feel bad about going off into historical ruminations.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by doubloon »

I like the little historical tidbits.

As far as non-lethal penetration goes there once was a police force that used suppressed 10/22s for "non-lethal" crowd control but after several deaths from 10/22 fire a little investigation was done which determined the 10/22 is about as non-lethal as a democrat is bipartisan.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by Historian »

Tony M. wrote:
yellowfin wrote:Question: given how bad .38 LRN sucked for stopping power, WTF did PD's approve let alone require them?
Fun fact:

When Teddy Roosevelt was the police commissioner for the NYPD way back in the day, he actually had the force move down from .38 revolvers to .32 revolvers (and the .32 colt New Police cartridge was 'born'. It was literally the same thing as the .32 S&W long, but with a flat nosed bullet).

The reason for the change had to do with the officers ability to hit their targets with the .32 revolvers more consistently than they could with the .38's. It seems ole' Teddy believed in the importance of shot placement. I don't know that I would agree with a .32 for a duty weapon, but most bullets when placed properly, are effective.
+1

Ask Dr. Gerald Bull* the effectiveness of a lowly .32 round from a weapon with a strange
looking black tube hanging out the front, held by some fun folks
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by whiterussian1974 »

doubloon wrote:As far as non-lethal penetration goes there once was a police force that used suppressed 10/22s for "non-lethal" crowd control but after several deaths from 10/22 fire a little investigation was done which determined the 10/22 is about as non-lethal as a democrat is bipartisan.
I have heard reports that IDF uses this system to break up demonstrations, riots in the West Bank. Don't know if they still use it.
Historian makes an excellent point about the Intel Services using suppressed .32ACP during Wet Ops. Take out the Liver, Heart and maybe the lungs for good measure and noone will pose much threat.
Conversely, I have "heard stories" from people that 2nd and 3rd World Interogations can include 10 shots from a .22lr pistol along the joints of arms and legs and the Subject still survive.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by doubloon »

whiterussian1974 wrote:...
Conversely, I have "heard stories" from people that 2nd and 3rd World Interogations can include 10 shots from a .22lr pistol along the joints of arms and legs and the Subject still survive.
Absolutely.

I guess they make'em tougher in Harlem ... 21 wounds from middling caliber weapons.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/harl ... 25248.html

The article says more than 50 bullets were fired, close to a 50% hit rate ... of course they don't say how many more than 50 so it could have been 50 more than 50.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by will36 »

Killed a deer with my 9mm Ar running a can. 147 lawman ammo.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by whiterussian1974 »

will36- what shot placement? Heart/liver?
Many years ago I accidently killed an 8 point buck driving 55mph in my 1984 Suburban.
It ran in from of me left to right. I hit the brakes, but my radiator clipped its right rear leg.
It died from the shock, rather than the wound itself.
The post above refering to people in the 1920s-1950s giving up after 1 shot in nonlethal area is absolutely correct. People that that bullets were embued with a magical force that noone could avoid. However, with the influence of TV and movies showing people hit 5-6 times in the chest and arms and still returning fire, modern Perps use their adrenaline to push through the Shock and continue their attack. That's why multiple shots in vital areas is so important.
My cousin is a retired Chief of Police in Kansas. He was an Air Force Security Forces (MP) before going to civilian PD. He said that 25-30 yrs ago they were taught to hit torso upper left, upper right, abdomenal left and right, and then a heart shot.
I have never heard of this before or since so maybe his trainer had an obscure training theory.
Our training was always double tap high center chest (so called center mass, even though center of mass is 2 inches below the belly button.) Then continue rapid double taps until the target fell. The Theory being that under stress we would wobble a bit from adreneline and the shots might waver from POA.
I was a nursing student before changing to LE and thought that for the Tueller Drill a double tap to pelvic girdle would drop a subject quicker than multiple chest shots. A deer can run for 30 seconds after a heart shot and so can humans. Same for collapsed lung.
I later read an article from Massad Ayoob in Shooting Times that said essentially the same.
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Last edited by whiterussian1974 on Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 9mm subsonic = "widowmaker"?

Post by will36 »

shot it thru the lungs. I have also had good luck shooting them with a 7.62x39 subsonic round I shoot thru a can.

Now where I hunt if you can see/shoot 50 yards your doing good. Its pretty good on hogs. :)

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Last edited by will36 on Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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