How to register a can that will be inherited?

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How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Davo5o » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:48 pm

My 68 yr old father just purchased an AAC cyclone in WI and wants to know how he should register it so that it can most easily be transferred to me in MT when he is no longer able to use it some time in the future.

I have all of my NFA items on a form 4, and he wants to know if he can register it in a trust or corp with me listed? If that will elevate multiple 200 transfers in the future, or basically the simplest and cheapest way to allow it to be transferred to me out of state when he is done using it.

Thanks for any help
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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by renegade » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:04 pm

HE register it in his own name.

It will then pass to you tax free on on form 5.

Or you could use a trust.

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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Davo5o » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:09 pm

It's tax free on a form 5 even if it has to cross state lines?

If so, that sounds great, and thank you for your response.
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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Bendersquint » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:49 pm

Davo5o wrote:It's tax free on a form 5 even if it has to cross state lines?

If so, that sounds great, and thank you for your response.
Yes Tax free to anyone that the decedent declare via Form5 as long as they are legal in that state to possess.

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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Armorer-at-Law » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:59 pm

Davo5o wrote:It's tax free on a form 5 even if it has to cross state lines?

If so, that sounds great, and thank you for your response.
Only when he dies. If it is transferred to you while he is still alive, it goes on a Form 4 and $200 tax must be paid.

Or he could form a corporation or LLC, then just transfer ownership of the entity (and its assets) to you whenever he wants.
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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by WooD » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:00 am

renegade wrote:HE register it in his own name.

It will then pass to you tax free on on form 5.

Or you could use a trust.
I have a 2 SBR AR's and one can. I told my daughter when I died she would have to turn the can in to the ATF, and ask the ATF about putting the AR's back to regular rifles.

You saying she can transfer anything I have when I die to her on a form 5 at no cost? I don't have a trust set up.

That would be too cool. Other than the being dead part!

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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:32 am

WooD wrote:
renegade wrote:HE register it in his own name.

It will then pass to you tax free on on form 5.

Or you could use a trust.
I have a 2 SBR AR's and one can. I told my daughter when I died she would have to turn the can in to the ATF, and ask the ATF about putting the AR's back to regular rifles.

You saying she can transfer anything I have when I die to her on a form 5 at no cost? I don't have a trust set up.

That would be too cool. Other than the being dead part!
Correct upon death the items get 1 transfer that is tax free via Form5.

Just will it to her and she will get them tax free.

No trust needed.

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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by WooD » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:17 am

Bendersquint wrote:
WooD wrote:
renegade wrote:HE register it in his own name.

It will then pass to you tax free on on form 5.

Or you could use a trust.
I have a 2 SBR AR's and one can. I told my daughter when I died she would have to turn the can in to the ATF, and ask the ATF about putting the AR's back to regular rifles.

You saying she can transfer anything I have when I die to her on a form 5 at no cost? I don't have a trust set up.

That would be too cool. Other than the being dead part!
Correct upon death the items get 1 transfer that is tax free via Form5.

Just will it to her and she will get them tax free.

No trust needed.

Thank You!

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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by L1A1Rocker » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:24 am

WooD wrote:
renegade wrote:HE register it in his own name.

It will then pass to you tax free on on form 5.

Or you could use a trust.
I have a 2 SBR AR's and one can. I told my daughter when I died she would have to turn the can in to the ATF, and ask the ATF about putting the AR's back to regular rifles.

You saying she can transfer anything I have when I die to her on a form 5 at no cost? I don't have a trust set up.

That would be too cool. Other than the being dead part!
That's correct. List it in your will who it goes too. Then the executor takes care of the paperwork. We went through this last year with two silencers that were my late fathers. They transfer tax free and without CLEO on a form 5. Now get this; with all the extended wait times going on, it only took 35 days mailbox to mailbox for the Form 5's to come back approved. It really is that simple.

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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Conqueror » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:16 am

Just make sure that the heir actually wants, and can legally receive, the items. I know a guy whose kids are not gun people, so willing his collection to them would be silly (especially since they live in ban states). I haven't explored this yet, but I'm sure an estate attorney would know a way for the estate to sell the items for fair price and then will the proceeds to the children if direct inheritance of the firearms is not possible.
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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by WooD » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:43 am

Conqueror wrote:Just make sure that the heir actually wants, and can legally receive, the items. I know a guy whose kids are not gun people, so willing his collection to them would be silly (especially since they live in ban states). I haven't explored this yet, but I'm sure an estate attorney would know a way for the estate to sell the items for fair price and then will the proceeds to the children if direct inheritance of the firearms is not possible.
My daughter and her husband each have one gun and carry permits. She 's not a gun person as in a collector, but would want my stuff just because she knows how much it means to me. She said she would always keep my surfboards, and she lives in Ohio.

My son who also lives in Ohio would give anything in the world to get all my guns. My daughter is the executor of my will, and I stated if my son was living a responsible life for her to give him any guns she didn't want. I seriously doubt he will ever legally own a gun the rest of his life. He's out on bond right now on 5 felony charges. Laws are messed up, all he did was have a large garden in his basement.

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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Armorer-at-Law » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:35 pm

They transfer tax free and without CLEO on a form 5.
I'm afraid a Form 5 does require CLEO certification, if it is being transferred to an individual.
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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Bendersquint » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:44 pm

Armorer-at-Law wrote:
They transfer tax free and without CLEO on a form 5.
I'm afraid a Form 5 does require CLEO certification, if it is being transferred to an individual.
See 3 in the last 2 months that were individual and didn't have a CLEO signature....approved.

Wonder how they all slipped through.

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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by WooD » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:56 pm

Armorer-at-Law wrote:
They transfer tax free and without CLEO on a form 5.
I'm afraid a Form 5 does require CLEO certification, if it is being transferred to an individual.
I've heard Hamilton County is tough on CLEO sign offs. My daughter lives just north in Fairfield which is Butler County.

Thought about setting up a trust which I should have done in the beginning. If I set one up now I'm guessing it would cost $200 for each item to be transferred to it?

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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by L1A1Rocker » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:11 pm

Armorer-at-Law wrote:
They transfer tax free and without CLEO on a form 5.
I'm afraid a Form 5 does require CLEO certification, if it is being transferred to an individual.
Sir, you are flat ass dead wrong. Not only do I have two from last year transferring my late fathers' silencers to my mother, I also have the information straight from the ATF.
9.5.3.1 Distributions to heirs.
Although these distributions are
not treated as “transfers” for
purposes of the NFA, Form 5 must be filed by an
executor or administrator to register a firearm
to a lawful heir and the form must be approve
d by ATF prior to distribution to the heir. The
form should be filed as soon as possible. Howeve
r, ATF will allow a reasonable time to arrange
for the transfer. This generally should be done befo
re probate is closed. Wh
en a firearm is being
transferred to an
individual
heir, his or her fingerprints on
FBI Forms FD-258 must accompany
the transfer application. The app
lication will be denied if the he
ir’s receipt or possession of the
firearm would violate Federal, State, or local la
w. The law enforcement certification on the form
need not be completed
. The form should also
be accompanied by documentation showing the
executor’s or administrator’s authority to distribu
te the firearm as well as the heir’s entitlement
to the firearm. Distributions to heirs should
not be made until Forms 5 are approved. Executors
and administrators are not required to have estate
firearms registered to th
em prior to distribution
to lawful heirs.
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/d ... pter-9.pdf

Now I've been reading you blather on for quite some time on this forum, and on the 300BLK forum and have wondered just how full of s--t you are. Now I know, so please, shut the F--k up about s--t you do not know and quit disseminating erroneous information. Thank you.

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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Buzduk » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:08 pm

L1A1Rocker wrote:
Armorer-at-Law wrote:
They transfer tax free and without CLEO on a form 5.
I'm afraid a Form 5 does require CLEO certification, if it is being transferred to an individual.
Sir, you are flat ass dead wrong. Not only do I have two from last year transferring my late fathers' silencers to my mother, I also have the information straight from the ATF.
9.5.3.1 Distributions to heirs.
Although these distributions are
not treated as “transfers” for
purposes of the NFA, Form 5 must be filed by an
executor or administrator to register a firearm
to a lawful heir and the form must be approve
d by ATF prior to distribution to the heir. The
form should be filed as soon as possible. Howeve
r, ATF will allow a reasonable time to arrange
for the transfer. This generally should be done befo
re probate is closed. Wh
en a firearm is being
transferred to an
individual
heir, his or her fingerprints on
FBI Forms FD-258 must accompany
the transfer application. The app
lication will be denied if the he
ir’s receipt or possession of the
firearm would violate Federal, State, or local la
w. The law enforcement certification on the form
need not be completed
. The form should also
be accompanied by documentation showing the
executor’s or administrator’s authority to distribu
te the firearm as well as the heir’s entitlement
to the firearm. Distributions to heirs should
not be made until Forms 5 are approved. Executors
and administrators are not required to have estate
firearms registered to th
em prior to distribution
to lawful heirs.
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/d ... pter-9.pdf

Now I've been reading you blather on for quite some time on this forum, and on the 300BLK forum and have wondered just how full of s--t you are. Now I know, so please, shut the F--k up about s--t you do not know and quit disseminating erroneous information. Thank you.
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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by L1A1Rocker » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:49 pm

Buzduk wrote:
Image[/quote]

Yes that may have been a bit harsh. Let me explain. He and I have had this conversation before (IIRC it was on the 300BLK forum). He knows that a CLEO is not needed for an individual estate transfer. What's more, is that he is fully aware that I know he knows the truth. Yet for some reason he saw fit to quote my post, and basically say I'm lying about having gone through this process last year by doing so. He is INTENTIONALLY passing mis-information. I do not know what his motive is, but he needs to be called out on it.

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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Buzduk » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:30 pm

L1A1Rocker wrote:
Buzduk wrote:
Image
Yes that may have been a bit harsh. Let me explain. He and I have had this conversation before (IIRC it was on the 300BLK forum). He knows that a CLEO is not needed for an individual estate transfer. What's more, is that he is fully aware that I know he knows the truth. Yet for some reason he saw fit to quote my post, and basically say I'm lying about having gone through this process last year by doing so. He is INTENTIONALLY passing mis-information. I do not know what his motive is, but he needs to be called out on it.[/quote]
I would have responded the same way, maybe more harshly given the circumstances.
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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Armorer-at-Law » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:56 am

The law enforcement certification on the form
need not be completed.
I stand humbly corrected. Though the Form 5 does have a CLEO certification block.

I apologize that my "blather" offends you so. I do not recall having this conversation with you here or on 300BLKTalk. I did not quote you to accuse you of "lying." My intention was to make a correction based on the ATF regs, which do not carve out an exemption from the CLEO certification requirement for a Form 5 transfer from an estate to an heir. Other Form 5 transfers, specifically a transfer from a government entity to an individual, expressly requires the CLEO certification (27 CFR 479.90(c)). But since the ATF made up the CLEO requirement in the first place, I guess they can waive it when they wish.


ETA: I believe the conversation on 300BLKTalk to which you refer was about whether a NICS check was required when delivering an NFA firearm to the trustee of a trust. Yes, we both agreed that it was not required. However, ATF "guidance" (the same type of information provided by ATF, not regs, that says you do not need CLEO certification for a Form 5 transfer to an heir) says that a NICS check is required. I used the ATF's position on the issue against them in one of the arguments submitted as comments I wrote to the proposed rule changes (41P).
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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Toxarch » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:04 am

Are you allowed to Form 5 an NFA item to a Trust? Then at that point you (actually you'd be dead so it would be some descendant) just have to alter the trustees and heirs and barring a change in NFA law (knock on wood) never have to worry about future $200 tax stamps on those items.

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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:38 am

Toxarch wrote:Are you allowed to Form 5 an NFA item to a Trust? Then at that point you (actually you'd be dead so it would be some descendant) just have to alter the trustees and heirs and barring a change in NFA law (knock on wood) never have to worry about future $200 tax stamps on those items.
No Form5's only go to individuals, not entities.

Once the individual gets the item via Form5 they can transfer or do whatever they want since its now their legal property.

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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Armorer-at-Law » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:02 am

Toxarch wrote:Are you allowed to Form 5 an NFA item to a Trust? Then at that point you (actually you'd be dead so it would be some descendant) just have to alter the trustees and heirs and barring a change in NFA law (knock on wood) never have to worry about future $200 tax stamps on those items.
What you describe can be accomplished with a corporation or LLC. The entity owns the NFA item, but ownership of the entity is passed by will. Ownership/registration of the NFA item never changes (although a change of address may be necessary). In some states, a corporation or LLC has annual filing requirement and/or fees, which make this form of entity higher maintenance.
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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by twodollarbill » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:47 pm

The hardest part for me was listening to my kids tell me what machineguns they get. :lol:

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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by rcn11thacr » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:52 am

twodollarbill wrote:The hardest part for me was listening to my kids tell me what machineguns they get. :lol:
No kidding. I wish they could agree on something for once, lol. Thats why i went with a trust so that neither of them could retain single ownership. Nothing like still being able to have my say...even from the grave.
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Re: How to register a can that will be inherited?

Post by Toxarch » Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:38 am

twodollarbill wrote:The hardest part for me was listening to my kids tell me what machineguns they get. :lol:
Want to adopt me? I'm not picky which machine gun I get. :wink:

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