Hornady Z Max Whisper Warning

[strobro32]

I just wanted to give everyone my personal account of Hornady Zombie Rifle Ammunition 300 Whisper/Blackout 110 Grain Z-Max.

On 5/30/2012 I bought 3 boxes of Hornady Zombie Rifle Ammunition 300 Whisper/Blackout 110 Grain Z-Max from Joe Bob Outfitters as a novelty item.

On 9/27/2013, I tried to shoot 1 round of the Z-Max. On that first Z-Max round, I had a weird malfunction. When I hit the bolt release, it didn't sound right. When pulled back the charging handle, I was peppered in the face with unburnt granulated powder. That Z Max bullet was stuck in the barrel. The unburnt power jammed the action and ended my trip.

On 9/28/2013 1 of 2 Z-Max rounds caused a strike in my suppressor.


Today, I dismantled my 3 remaining Zombie Max cartridges. All had very light case tension on the bullets. 2 had 19.9 grains of powder and 1 had 1.3 grains.

If you have some from the same time period, please check for loose bullets and low powder charges.

[Emilio]

Wow, sorry to hear/see this.

They may have helped you, sounds like they know of the problem and the boxes would have been a huge.

Thumbs up to Liberty!

[strobro32]

Liberty Suppressor has been incredible. They upgraded me to their new lighter and quieter Chaotic core that evolved from my custom "beer can." Excellent service and products.

Buy from Liberty Suppressors!

[silencertalk]

Probably the can was not screwed on all the way or the bore was not concentric to the can or the can was not concentric to its baffles.

Loose neck tension would not effect that.

This is very unlikely to be Hornady's fault.

[John4045]

Holy crapola! I hope everything works out for you.

[kapkanimd]

Why did you not still have the boxes? you just dumped them out lose somewhere? Then you say it is there fault for losing something? very confusing.. sorry it happened, but I can see their point on how can they prove it was their fault..

[silencertalk]

The boxes are collectable.

Most likely the round came apart because it struck your silencer. It struct the silencer for a reason that is related to either the gun, silencer, or how securly the silencer was attached. If it was lose at all then it won't be aligned.

[strobro32]

The boxes are collectible but the novelty wore off fast. I don't have the boxes anymore because I donated $ to Robert's run for charity and he gave me a bunch of PMags. I have many magazines. All ammo goes in the mags when it comes in. More storage space in the safe.

I have receipts from buying the ammo from a reputable dealer. It has their proprietary cases, the Zombie green tip V Max bullets and their powder and primers. There are no extractor marks, no scratched from feed ramps on the cases. It came in their boxes.

I never expected them to just write me a check. I expected them to want to inspect and test the ammo. They made them. They should be able to see if it's theirs.

I did not expect them to to say, " We had theft/loss..." "Nothing like this has ever happened before." "We've never had any reported problems." "Not our problem." From searching on the web, I found that was not accurate.



I've shot 400+ rounds of Rem subs and HV without a problem. My threads and can are concentric to the bore.

I am positive my can was on tight. Both days the Z max rounds were loaded and the can was checked. I only fired twice after loading and installing the can. the can was still tight after the second shot.

I never said the loose neck tension was why the bullet struck the baffles. It was why the first day of shooting was ended from the first round jamming in the lands. When I extracted the case the powder jammed the bolt. It is an indication that the lot may have QC problems.

1.3 grains of powder would defiantly cause a problem, especially if it caused a squib and a following round hit it.

[rockman96]

The boxes are collectable.

Most likely the round came apart because it struck your silencer. It struct the silencer for a reason that is related to either the gun, silencer, or how securly the silencer was attached. If it was lose at all then it won't be aligned.

I could believe this in most instances, but this ain't strobro's first gig. Plus, his findings with the Hornady ammo, not to mention Hornany's admission to a big-time screwup on THEIR part, doesn't give me any confidence that it is not their fault.

Today, I dismantled my 3 remaining Zombie Max cartridges. All had very light case tension on the bullets. 2 had 9.9 grains of powder and 1 had 1.3 grains.

[Toxarch]

The boxes are collectable.

Most likely the round came apart because it struck your silencer. It struct the silencer for a reason that is related to either the gun, silencer, or how securly the silencer was attached. If it was lose at all then it won't be aligned.

Based on both of your responses, I really don't think you read much of the original post. Looks like you saw the picture, picked up a couple of key words and posted a response based off those.

[dtom29]

I like Strobo...I've interacted with him on Uzitalk and enjoy his posts...but, this is what I posted on 300blktalk...

By not sending any of it in Hornady really had no chance to make it right. You are on here making disparaging comments when you really don't know if they would have been as stand up as Liberty or not. One person you talked to offered no real satisfaction, but when you talked to a Tech Supervisor he said "Send it back on our dime. We will test it. If it is determined to be our stuff and it is defective, we will take care of you." I'm trying to figure out what more you wanted? You had no boxes??? no lot number, and they still offered everything you expected.

I don't think it was anything but an ammo problem, but I wish Strobo would have sent the ammo back to Hornady. I understand he was upset, but in the long run this thread isn't fair to Hornady who had no chance to be "stand up" about this. The reaction from Liberty is the way Dave is. I've met Dave and his family personally and they will go out of their way for thier customers. I think you would have found the same from Hornady if you would have given them the chance.

[strobro32]

This was my experience. I only have it to make a judgement call.

I want nothing from Hornady. I did not use their money to ship the remaining rounds back to them or turn in a repair bill for my suppressor. I did not even ask them to send me replacement ammo.

Todd was a great CS supervisor. Props to him. I just did not have the confidence to believe they would give me a fair assessment after such immediate "no fault" declarations from the first tech. They made it clear that without lot numbers, it would not help them fix the problem.

I do want to warn anyone who might have purchased some of the early produced Z Max 300 Whisper ammo to check it if they intend to shoot it. I love this hobby and the awesome people who share it. I have been the recipient of some outstanding generosity from them. I try to help when I can.... even if it rustles a few feathers.

[silencertalk]

1.3 total grains is of course extremely bad. The first time I read it, I though you were saying 1.3 grains less than normal.

I don't think Hornady is a bad company for wanting a lot number. Companies policies evolve over years of doing business.

[kassenz]

Wow -

Sorry that happened to you!

Thanks for posting the details here though!

I will keep my eyes peeled. I bought some Zombie ammo (Hornady) in 45acp, but haven't fired it yet.

[Historian]

Wow -

Sorry that happened to you!

Thanks for posting the details here though!

I will keep my eyes peeled. I bought some Zombie ammo (Hornady) in 45acp, but haven't fired it yet.

For the Ute's ( = "youths" in the Movie 'My Cousin Vinnie" ) here
they might enjoy the clever humor of the 1940's movies with a message
still pertinent to today:

<< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAIpI8IxgFs >>

[oldcoot]

Wow -

Sorry that happened to you!

Thanks for posting the details here though!

I will keep my eyes peeled. I bought some Zombie ammo (Hornady) in 45acp, but haven't fired it yet.

For the Ute's ( = "youths" in the Movie 'My Cousin Vinnie" ) here
they might enjoy the clever humor of the 1940's movies with a message
still pertinent to today:

<< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAIpI8IxgFs >>

One of my all time favorite movie scenes.

Strobro32, sorry that happened to you.

[1slow01Z71]

That really sucks. Glad to hear Liberty is taking care of you. We are very lucky that most of the can companies are very customer oriented these days. Hornady is in a bad position in this case woth you notbhaving the boxes. Theres really not a whole lot they can do with what they've got to work with from you. Thats crazy that one barely had over a grain of powder.

[wacki]

Probably the can was not screwed on all the way or the bore was not concentric to the can or the can was not concentric to its baffles.

Loose neck tension would not effect that.

What is loose neck tension?

Geissele sells an expensive an alignment rod. Discussions here.

I'm buying these rods:

For 5.56/.223
Diameter: 0.2190
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/06000145

For .300BLK
Diameter: 0.2970
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/06000194?fromRR=Y


And I will use them before every shoot.

[wacki]

Todd was a great CS supervisor. Props to him. I just did not have the confidence to believe they would give me a fair assessment after such immediate "no fault" declarations from the first tech. They made it clear that without lot numbers, it would not help them fix the problem.

I do want to warn anyone who might have purchased some of the early produced Z Max 300 Whisper ammo to check it if they intend to shoot it. I love this hobby and the awesome people who share it. I have been the recipient of some outstanding generosity from them. I try to help when I can.... even if it rustles a few feathers.

Strobro32, I troubleshoot half a million dollar machines for a living. Send in the ammo. Give them a chance. Do not dismiss the company as a whole because one person made a knee jerk reaction. Every company has jerks working for them that nobody wants to fire. Every company has someone that goes through a divorce, suffers from some medical condition, etc. It's life. When situations like this are escalated to a supervisor there are usually 3-4 people discussing it behind the scenes. Put stuff in writing, talk to a supervisor and then let calmer winds prevail.

If you are worried that they will lie to you keep some ammo for yourself. Gunpowder leaves a very distinct signature via gas chromatography, liquid chromatography column or a dozen other tests. Some of these are cheap and some of them are not. But all of them should be good enough to fingerprint the gunpowder.

[wacki]

1.3 total grains is of course extremely bad. The first time I read it, I though you were saying 1.3 grains less than normal.

I don't think Hornady is a bad company for wanting a lot number. Companies policies evolve over years of doing business.

My company asks for a lot number EVERY time something goes wrong. Very few companies are vertically integrated and raw materials often come from different sources lot to lot. Lot #'s are essential to the troubleshooting process.

[strobro32]

I agree wacki. Good advise. I would send them in if I had more.

Loose neck tension is when the bullets are loose in the case. It can cause to bullet to set back while loading or the bullets separating forward, lodging in the lands. The second happened to me on the first z-max round.

[TROOPER]

Probably the can was not screwed on all the way or the bore was not concentric to the can or the can was not concentric to its baffles.

Loose neck tension would not effect that.

This is very unlikely to be Hornady's fault.

Even disregarding that, Hornady has a larger customer base than Liberty which means that Hornady's exposure is much larger as well. Limiting that exposure by asking for lot numbers isn't unusual or uncalled for. Also, if they offer to test it for free, but NOT offer financial help for the suppressor initially, then that isn't unheard of either. Since they never got to test the ammo (correct me if I'm wrong about that) how can they know whether they are responsible for the damaged suppressor? Look at it from their side:

- random nobody (no offense) calls up and claims their ammunition destroyed his expensive components.
- alleged customer cannot provide boxes to help track down lot numbers...
- .. but still wants money from the company.

Of course they won't offer to repair the suppressor (or funds to do so) until they can determine if something went wrong from their end.

I sympathize with your situation, but Liberty was GENEROUS to repair it, whereas Hornady was FAIR to not.... at least given their understanding of the situation.

[strobro32]

I think you are right Trooper.

I have to admit, that first tech pissed me off with his immediate and constant denials. I did cool down in an hour and call back to the very professional tech supervisor who did exactly like he was supposed to an offer to test the ammo.

I have edited my original post.

If anyone else has early 300 Whisper Z-Max ammo, please check for loose bullets and consistent weights before shooting it in suppressed firearms. This post was mean to help others, not to create a Hornady boycott.

[wacki]

I think you are right Trooper.

I have to admit, that first tech pissed me off with his immediate and constant denials. I did cool down in an hour and call back to the very professional tech supervisor who did exactly like he was supposed to an offer to test the ammo.

I have edited my original post.

If anyone else has early 300 Whisper Z-Max ammo, please check for loose bullets and consistent weights before shooting it in suppressed firearms. This post was mean to help others, not to create a Hornady boycott.

Judge a man not by how he behaves when he is right but by how he handles his mistakes.

We know you meant well Strobro32. All is good.

[Buzduk]

I just wanted to give everyone my personal account of Hornady Zombie Rifle Ammunition 300 Whisper/Blackout 110 Grain Z-Max.

On 5/30/2012 I bought 3 boxes of Hornady Zombie Rifle Ammunition 300 Whisper/Blackout 110 Grain Z-Max from Joe Bob Outfitters as a novelty item.

On 9/27/2013, I tried to shoot 1 round of the Z-Max. On that first Z-Max round, I had a weird malfunction. When I hit the bolt release, it didn't sound right. When pulled back the charging handle, I was peppered in the face with unburnt granulated powder. That Z Max bullet was stuck in the barrel. The unburnt power jammed the action and ended my trip.

On 9/28/2013 1 of 2 Z-Max rounds caused a strike in my suppressor.


Today, I dismantled my 3 remaining Zombie Max cartridges. All had very light case tension on the bullets. 2 had 19.9 grains of powder and 1 had 1.3 grains.

If you have some from the same time period, please check for loose bullets and low powder charges.

I have nightmares about strikes like that! Great to see that the fellas at Liberty are up to the task again! Great customer service!