Hello all, I wasn't 100% sure the best place (or even forum) to ask for help, so mods please feel free to correct me.
I finally finished putting a Savage FVSR together and was pumped to get it out to the range. Initially, I was having a hard time even keeping the gun on paper with the can attached at 50 yds. I pulled the Tac65 and started drilling nickel sized groups without even trying. Screwed the can back on and i'm totally off paper again!
Eventually, I found that the can is shifting POI 3+ mils to the left (about 5.5-6.00 inches) at 50 yards! I pulled the can off several times and found the POI shift is not repeatable. Sometimes is was more, sometimes less.... On top of that all, the groups opened up significantly, throwing flyers everywhere with the can on. Needless to say, this is highly disappointing....
For background, I'm running the Savage FVSR in a Boyds stock, DIP metal, Factory base, Weaver Tac rings, Primary Arms 4-14 x 44 FFP. My particular Savage has factory threads approx .5 in length, so I'm using a space from Traction Grips. The space is about .25, so maybe it's not enough thread with the space, but I'm afraid the muzzle is contacting the first baffle with .5 of thread as it sits.....
I have run a few thousand rounds through this can on a pistol (Walther P22, now a Ruger 22.45 mkIII). I haven't full disassembled to can to clean it lately, but I use a dip to get most of the carbon gunk out.
If anyone that can provide some help, it would be greatly appreciated. I wanna use this gun for target (shooting groups) and learning the dope on a mil mil scope, but I wanna run the dang thing suppressed.... Help!
Thanks
Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
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- Silent But Deadly
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Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
Savage is known for s--t thread jobs. Who's spacer are you using?
Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
I'm using the threaded spacer from TractionGrips.com http://tractiongrips.com/catalog/i12.html
I also have a threaded spacer from Gemtech available. http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/Spacer ... s-p472.htm
Yeah, the savage isn't exactly what I'd call a "precision" machine...
I also have a threaded spacer from Gemtech available. http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/Spacer ... s-p472.htm
Yeah, the savage isn't exactly what I'd call a "precision" machine...
Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
I had my parents over for the game tonight. I had my former gunsmith dad take a look and he says the threads aren't even close to concentric with the bore. Now, the question is: Send it back to Savage, possibly get another bad example and still end up with a gun that's too long in the threads or send it out to be threaded properly? I'm leaning towards sending it out. The barrel on these is actually 16.5", so technically I'd have enough to cut off the shitty thread-job and have it re-done. Thoughts?
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Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
websniper wrote:I had my parents over for the game tonight. I had my former gunsmith dad take a look and he says the threads aren't even close to concentric with the bore. Now, the question is: Send it back to Savage, possibly get another bad example and still end up with a gun that's too long in the threads or send it out to be threaded properly? I'm leaning towards sending it out. The barrel on these is actually 16.5", so technically I'd have enough to cut off the shitty thread-job and have it re-done. Thoughts?
You would be coming close to 16" with a proper cut, crown and thread job.
POI shift being repeatable is more a result of torque the suppressor is attached with.
I have a TAC65, and on my buckmark pistol with TacSol barrel I get repeat minimal shift (at 25m it is literally 5mm higher... likely from the slight velocity boost suppressors have) but I also torque it on to the exact same spec using a torque wrench and disassembly tool. My threads are also less than 0.001" off perfect concentricity (TacSol spec is 0.0005) which also helps aid the repeatable shift (if there is any).
You might be better off finding an aftermarket barrel threaded to spec, as far as price is concerned.
To keep that barrel safely at 16, the cut would have to occur around the relief cut of the threads and threaded with a lead in (minor diameter in front of threads), but this alone is no guarantee.
Many weapons MFG thread jobs seem to also focus on muzzle shouldering, and not on the rear shoulder.
Using spacers can alter concentricity if they themselves are not perfectly square (check with an accurate caliper at 6 points... should always be exactly the same) and also could further cause the issue of POI shift. You would almost be better off simply using a shim kit designed for QD muzzle devices, which run less than many of these spacers, and are made to keep things square.
Suppressors cost less than hearing aids..
Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
The Savage is going back for Warranty and I'm gonna place an order for a CZ 455 Tacticool. I'm over this Savage.
Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
Wait.
If/when you send the Savage back, they're going to replace only the barrel because this involves the least amount of resources on their behalf.
Wait for that to come back before making your decision.
You might like it and keep it.
You might hate it and sell it.
... but you won't wonder "what if". Let it play out a bit first before making a final decision.
If/when you send the Savage back, they're going to replace only the barrel because this involves the least amount of resources on their behalf.
Wait for that to come back before making your decision.
You might like it and keep it.
You might hate it and sell it.
... but you won't wonder "what if". Let it play out a bit first before making a final decision.
- eastern_hunter
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Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
I have an FVSR ... shoots well with little change in POI with the can. Great little squirrel rig
Also have several CZ rifles though in much larger chamberings (9,3x62 and .416 Rigby). CZs can be very nice indeed!
Also have several CZ rifles though in much larger chamberings (9,3x62 and .416 Rigby). CZs can be very nice indeed!
Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
Make sure when you send it back to clearly spell out the issue; heck, if you can show how far off it is, even better. Tell them WHY you sent it back (you have a suppressor, and the threads are far enough off to risk the integrity of the can if you shot it) and what the standards are that you need for it. If you have the thread specs for your suppressor, print out a copy and include it. Savage Customer Service has impressed me in the past (former gunsmith for a big box chain of outdoor stores), and they do try to take care of the customer.websniper wrote:The Savage is going back for Warranty and I'm gonna place an order for a CZ 455 Tacticool. I'm over this Savage.
Include a good phone number and your email address, in case they have any questions once they get it. They are ridiculously simple rifles, that are VERY accurate (typically), reasonably priced, and they want to make the customer happy. I'd be willing to bet that you get back a good piece, if you give them a chance to make it right.
Byrdman
Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
Roger that guys. I'm sending it back for warranty either way. Whether I keep it or not remains to be seen. I'll definitely wait until it comes back to make a decision.
Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
Wait...you said you are using a .250" spacer? The threads are .500"...you're eliminating at least 50% of the engagement area of the threads!
I'd take that spacer off and snug the can up. Tac65s aren't known as especially tight, and they have a spacer before the blast baffle, IIRC. I'd snug that can down tight and shoot it. The thread concentricity issue is real, but the variation in POI shift is probably because the can was wobbling due to the lack of thread engagement.
Byrdman
I'd take that spacer off and snug the can up. Tac65s aren't known as especially tight, and they have a spacer before the blast baffle, IIRC. I'd snug that can down tight and shoot it. The thread concentricity issue is real, but the variation in POI shift is probably because the can was wobbling due to the lack of thread engagement.
Byrdman
- firstsgtsteiner
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Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
Check the crown on the barrel, the one I got has a egg shaped crown job done.....
Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
“The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” - Samuel Adams
Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
Second the warranty effort. My FVSR shoots great groups suppressed but I can't actually say I've ever shot it unsuppressed for accuracy.
I did run a few rounds through the chrony both suppressed and unsuppressed and I noticed a greater STDEV in muzzle velocity suppressed than unsuppressed and it varied quite a bit depending on what ammo I used.
I have the data laying around somewhere if you're interested but in my limited experience I believe suppression opens up groups on 22lr or at least it seems to on my 22lr.
I did run a few rounds through the chrony both suppressed and unsuppressed and I noticed a greater STDEV in muzzle velocity suppressed than unsuppressed and it varied quite a bit depending on what ammo I used.
I have the data laying around somewhere if you're interested but in my limited experience I believe suppression opens up groups on 22lr or at least it seems to on my 22lr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
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Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
Mine shoots great and personally know 5 others who shoot suppressed no problem. Great deal @ $220 loves CCI standards.
Maybe a bad batch of barrels, send it in and see how you like it after.
I seen a new CZ 22 that was very hard to work the bolt and they sent it back unfixed and say it was fine. so everyone screws up. Hopefully Savage has better service.
Maybe a bad batch of barrels, send it in and see how you like it after.
I seen a new CZ 22 that was very hard to work the bolt and they sent it back unfixed and say it was fine. so everyone screws up. Hopefully Savage has better service.
Member of the LSU, SWR, and RUGGED underground. Shame Silencerco!
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Re: Huge POI shift on Savage FVSR with a Tac65
It is advertised as 'suppressor ready'... which means threads and barrel need to be within the common .005 industry standard and all barrel work should be done on centers.websniper wrote:Roger that guys. I'm sending it back for warranty either way. Whether I keep it or not remains to be seen. I'll definitely wait until it comes back to make a decision.
It never surprises me how some gunsmiths who offer barrel threading are either just really bad at math, or have no clue what they are doing... have one trying to tell me you can't thread a barrel that is 15mm OD down to 9/16x24.... that it needs turned down to 1/2x28.
He must have never learned the metric system as 9/16x24 LH is just .2mm larger in major diameter than M14x1 LH, and 15mm is well obviously larger... Hey who knows, maybe this gunsmith is the same one who threaded your savage!!!!
Suppressors cost less than hearing aids..