Lost trust

[jgrammar]

I lost the trust that I created for my suppressor. Do I have to destroy the suppressor or is there some way of getting a copy of the trust from the ATF or replacing it? Thank you for your help

[GHEN]

Well you can't really LOSE a Trust. It is a legal entity. Kind of like how you cannot lose a corporation. Do you mean you misplced your trust documents? Is the trust in question registered with a legal or regulatory entity? If so you can probably get copies.

Not sure if i helped but i feel better anyway.

GHEN

[jgrammar]

Yes, I lost the trust documents. I'll try calling the ATF and see if they can make a copy for me. I'll post the results

[Magicman_007]

One solution is to create a "full amendment" to the original Trust. You can create new Trust docs and use the original name and state in there that this is a full amendment to Trust XYZ

[oilfieldtrash76]

Did you create the trust yourself or use an attorney? If you had an attorney form it I would call him/her. If not the posts above should help.

[jgrammar]

I created the trust myself using a template I found online. I'll look into the "full amendment" option

[danb35]

...and you don't have anything? Scans, copies, anything?

[jgrammar]

I don't have any copies of the trust document. It was lost during a move. I'm creating an amendment and restatement of the trust, but I'm not positive of the date that I created the trust. It is close to and may be exactly the same date that I signed the form 4. Should I just use that date?

Edit:

I just sent the ATF an email asking them to mail me a copy. I'll let you know what they say

[Bendersquint]

I don't have any copies of the trust document. It was lost during a move. I'm creating an amendment and restatement of the trust, but I'm not positive of the date that I created the trust. It is close to and may be exactly the same date that I signed the form 4. Should I just use that date?

Edit:

I just sent the ATF an email asking them to mail me a copy. I'll let you know what they say

A new copy will need to be notarized.....can't date it a previous date.

What does your lawyer suggest?

[jgrammar]

I have the number of a guy that does NFA trusts, but I'm hoping to avoid paying the fee. The silencer cost me $200 for the tax stamp and under $50 in materials, I'll probably just destroy it over spending hundreds on a lawyer. I made the trust myself when sent in the form 1 (not a form 4). Are you saying that I should restate it using the current date? I had read that you should use the original date. I believe I originally made the trust using Quicken's Willmaker. I just created a new one using the same software. Not sure if I can just get that notarized and I'm good or if it needs to be reworded since it's replacing the original trust documents.

[Bendersquint]

I have the number of a guy that does NFA trusts, but I'm hoping to avoid paying the fee. The silencer cost me $200 for the tax stamp and under $50 in materials, I'll probably just destroy it over spending hundreds on a lawyer. I made the trust myself when sent in the form 1 (not a form 4). Are you saying that I should restate it using the current date? I had read that you should use the original date. I believe I originally made the trust using Quicken's Willmaker. I just created a new one using the same software. Not sure if I can just get that notarized and I'm good or if it needs to be reworded since it's replacing the original trust documents.

For something like this I would recommend you listen to what a paid lawyer has to say not internet opinions.

The alternate(as you suggested) is to destroy your NFA item, report the destruction to the NFA Branch and then not worry about it.

This is one of the downfalls of DIY Trusts.

[jgrammar]

Yeah, this seems a little too complicated for me to figure out myself. Hopefully the ATF will be generous enough to mail me a copy.

[jgrammar]

I sent an email Thursday night and called Friday. I was told the NFA branch isn't answering (probably closed due to weather) and won't be available until Tuesday. I'm thinking about just destroying it now. I did just admit to the ATF that I'm illegally possessing a silencer. Depending on which agent gets my message, they might kick my door in and bust me rather than help me make it legal again.

[Bendersquint]

I sent an email Thursday night and called Friday. I was told the NFA brand isn't answering (probably closed due to weather) and won't be available until Tuesday. I'm thinking about just destroying it now. I did just admit to the ATF that I'm illegally possessing a silencer. Depending on which agent gets my message, they might kick my door in and bust me rather than help me make it legal again.

Do you still have the approved tax stamp?

Noone is going to kick in your door for having an approved tax stamp and missing a notarized copy of the trust, just print the electronic copy you have and wait and see what the ATF recommends.

They are closed due to the winter storm.

[jgrammar]

I have the form 1 with the approved tax stamp, but I don't even have an electronic copy of the trust to print out. I created the trust 7 years ago and lost the digital copy a while ago when my hard drive went out. The fact that the ATF may or may not have the only proof that the trust exists makes me a little uneasy about all this. I'll see what they have to say and if they don't seem to want to help me find a solution, I'll just destroy it so I can quit worrying about it.

[wp6529]

This is certainly a reminder that you need to have backup copies of anything important as well as backups for those backups. Both a hardcopy and an electronic copy (thumb drive, CD) in a safe deposit box, in a home fire safe, and anywhere else you have you can store stuff is a really good idea.

[Magicman_007]

Losing your Trust docs does not make you a felon. You are not illegally possessing a silencer. You do not need to destroy your silencer.

I would recreate the Trust as a fully amended and restated Trust (you do need to figure out the name of the original Trust to properly do that).

Another piece of friendly advice, the Trust you have off of the Quicken Will Maker is barely adequate, at best, as Revocable Family Trust. As a NFA it is woefully inadequate. Spend the $'s from a competent NFA Trust lawyer and get a Trust with the specific provision pertaining to NFA items.

[Bendersquint]

Losing your Trust docs does not make you a felon. You are not illegally possessing a silencer. You do not need to destroy your silencer.

I would recreate the Trust as a fully amended and restated Trust (you do need to figure out the name of the original Trust to properly do that).

Another piece of friendly advice, the Trust you have off of the Quicken Will Maker is barely adequate, at best, as Revocable Family Trust. As a NFA it is woefully inadequate. Spend the $'s from a competent NFA Trust lawyer and get a Trust with the specific provision pertaining to NFA items.

Can you elaborate on why the QWM is "barely adequate"?

[jgrammar]

From what I've gathered, its a scare tactic started by trust lawyers to make money. However, it looks like the software can't create an amended and restated version of a trust.

I would recreate the Trust as a fully amended and restated Trust (you do need to figure out the name of the original Trust to properly do that).

I have the name of the trust. It's on the form 1 and stamped into the suppressor

[Magicman_007]

From what I've gathered, its a scare tactic started by trust lawyers to make money. However, it looks like the software can't create an amended and restated version of a trust.

I would recreate the Trust as a fully amended and restated Trust (you do need to figure out the name of the original Trust to properly do that).

I have the name of the trust. It's on the form 1 and stamped into the suppressor

I can understand how you could think that it is a scare tactic for Lawyers to make money, but I can give you an example that may make you rethink it. I am a Certified Estate Planer. We have created, though our office, over 400 Revocable Living Trusts aka Family Trusts. I certainty have the resources and expertise to create a Trust. When I decided I wanted a NFA Trust, I wanted to know more about the particularities that are unique to NFA Trusts, so I consulted with an attorney. After said consultation, I decided pay an attorney to create one for me. The choice is certainly yours and I am sure the one you downloaded one you have will keep you out of trouble with ATF, but it's usefulness may stop there.

I should have been more clear, the date is actually part of the Trust name. Such as "The XYZ Trust dated February 16, 2014." So, you need to find the date of the the Trust. You are going to amend and restate the XYZ Trust dated XX/XX/XXXX.

[Magicman_007]

Losing your Trust docs does not make you a felon. You are not illegally possessing a silencer. You do not need to destroy your silencer.

I would recreate the Trust as a fully amended and restated Trust (you do need to figure out the name of the original Trust to properly do that).

Another piece of friendly advice, the Trust you have off of the Quicken Will Maker is barely adequate, at best, as Revocable Family Trust. As a NFA it is woefully inadequate. Spend the $'s from a competent NFA Trust lawyer and get a Trust with the specific provision pertaining to NFA items.

Can you elaborate on why the QWM is "barely adequate"?

Sure Matt. The purpose of a Revocable Trust, as he type from QWM, is to avoid probate. As such, if you follow the instructions and re-title your assets into the Trust, it will most likely accomplish that. However, as a planning document, which is my perspective on what a Revocable Trust should be, without getting into the granular details, it is my opinion that is it severely lacking in many areas.

Hope that helps.

[jgrammar]

I don't care what happens to the suppressor after I die, if that's what you mean. It will go to my mom, if she's still alive, who can legally own the device, and she'll have it destroyed. Otherwise, I'm sure some lawyer will have it destroyed. I just want to make sure I'm legal. If the ATF doesn't have a copy, and what you're saying about needing the original date is true, it sounds like I won't be able to append and restate it. If the ATF has a copy but won't send it to me, I'll ask them if they can give me the full name of the trust including the date. Is the date that's needed the date that the notary signed and stamped the trust documents?

Btw, I would like to thank everyone that's helping me brainstorm. It's appreciated!

[hardcase]

I don't care what happens to the suppressor after I die, if that's what you mean. It will go to my mom, if she's still alive, who can legally own the device, and she'll have it destroyed. Otherwise, I'm sure some lawyer will have it destroyed. I just want to make sure I'm legal. If the ATF doesn't have a copy, and what you're saying about needing the original date is true, it sounds like I won't be able to append and restate it. If the ATF has a copy but won't send it to me, I'll ask them if they can give me the full name of the trust including the date. Is the date that's needed the date that the notary signed and stamped the trust documents?

Btw, I would like to thank everyone that's helping me brainstorm. It's appreciated!

If I were you, I'd double check on the "It will go to my mom, who can legally own the device" statement. Suppressors are kind of like hot potatoes in that without the document no one wants to deal with them. I went through an attorney to do my Trust and listed the people who were legally entitled to possess my cans. My can dealer still had to do a criminal background check on me as the Trustee, apparently something new for Trusts, this was as of last month. This was the same form used to buy a handgun with all the "have you ever been convicted of", etc., and he had to call over the phone to get me cleared.

My suppressors were just last week turned over to me after an 11 month wait. My understanding is that ATF will approve cans on a Trust but holds their nose through the process looking for all "I's" and "T'S" crossed. They seem to be getting stricter on Trusts than a few years ago.

I suspect you will be put in the bottom of the pile, so to speak, as ATF people are so far behind. Anything involving government that is a wrinkle in their MO gets the shuffle aside.

Do you have a will? If not your Estate will have to be settled by the Court system.

As a side note, PM me with your design. I'd like to check it out.

[Bendersquint]

My can dealer still had to do a criminal background check on me as the Trustee, apparently something new for Trusts, this was as of last month. This was the same form used to buy a handgun with all the "have you ever been convicted of", etc., and he had to call over the phone to get me cleared.

Federal requirement is that the 4473 be filled out to sign for the NFA item, but there is no Federal requirement to do a NICS check or call anything in to release the item.

Your dealer running a check means one of three things. He hasn't actually read the 4473, personal decision or a state requirement.

[ick]

Is this the only man that removed his own an appendix and survived? could be.

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/a ... dix/72445/

Note: He was qualified to do his own work and had no other choice. This is why he removed his own appendix.

Get a professional. Surely you now see the perils of self-lawyering. Is that a word?

It is interesting to me that if you had paid a professional in the first place you would have saved time AND he would likely have a copy..... and none of this would be a problem.