Joe @ Red Jacket Introduction!

[CDT45ACP]

Can this post be transferred as a new topic or do I need to re submit?

[whiterussian1974]

Don't confuse the show or show builds with our real products, I'm sure you enjoy Movies, treat it as such.

Now you get $$$ for TV because of ignorant people who like to see thing blown up and can now afford a CNC and mill that no one knows how to use!

TV don't pay the bills, but it is a hell of a marketing tool and has brought thousands of new shooters in our community and industry and more people into the world of NFA.

I'm glad you watched it but again don't confuse our products with TV show stuff though we sell plenty of t shirts because of it too.

WHAT?!? TV is for "entertainment?" You should probably show a disclaimer during the Intro. Many of us obviously believe your show to be a Biographical Documentary.

In fact, I'm sure many workshop engineers have wondered why you are on Arts & Entertainment, instead of Biography or CNN. After all, your producers are broadcasting uneditted News Coverage, not Art or Entertainment. Right?
(Please don't leak my sarcasm.)

[Emilio]

Don't confuse the show or show builds with our real products, I'm sure you enjoy Movies, treat it as such.

Now you get $$$ for TV because of ignorant people who like to see thing blown up and can now afford a CNC and mill that no one knows how to use!

TV don't pay the bills, but it is a hell of a marketing tool and has brought thousands of new shooters in our community and industry and more people into the world of NFA.

I'm glad you watched it but again don't confuse our products with TV show stuff though we sell plenty of t shirts because of it too.

WHAT?!? TV is for "entertainment?" You should probably show a disclaimer during the Intro. Many of us obviously believe your show to be a Biographical Documentary.

In fact, I'm sure many workshop engineers have wondered why you are on Arts & Entertainment, instead of Biography or CNN. After all, your producers are broadcasting uneditted News Coverage, not Art or Entertainment. Right?
(Please don't leak my sarcasm.)

They are on the DISCOVERY channel which USED TO BE a good channel about LEARNING but they whored out like RJ with reality shows. What's next? Amish mafia needs a RJ sniper AK?

Why would anyone "respectable" concede their integrity for a stupid show? Hillbillies blowing up stuff with ridiculous firearms is good for NFA and new shooters? I hope all the noobs don't fall for the BS.

Indian Larry was on discovery and was more interesting as his true self and kept his integrity to his craft.

I guess it's a Barnum and Bailey thing? I didn't see how anyone could take RJ serious after watching one show even if the claim is it's only TV. Come on!

[Emilio]

http://www.businessreport.com/article/2 ... /130409827

Former family members set sights on 'Sons of Guns' star in lawsuit

Published Apr 8, 2013 at 2:00 pm (Updated Apr 8, 2013) ShareThis

Related Stories

As if its reality show on Discovery Channel weren't enough, Red Jacket Firearms is the subject of another drama unfolding in Baton Rouge federal court involving federal agents and an ex-wife. In a civil case itself filled with intrigue worthy of an episode or two, Sons of Guns star Will Hayden and the company he founded are being accused by former family members of securities fraud for allegedly issuing worthless stock certificates.

The suit concerns 17 shares that Hayden and then-wife Trudy Lee issued in 2002, just as the firearms business was getting off the ground. Using generic stock forms they downloaded from the Internet, they gave 10 shares in Red Jacket Firearms to Joseph Radford in return for carpentry work on their retail store; two shares to Lee's son, Joshua Currey, for his birthday; and two shares to Earl Lee, Trudy Lee's father.

The problem came eight years later, when Hayden had to forfeit his federal firearms license issued to Red Jacket Inc. after running into trouble with the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms over "record-keeping discrepancies," according to court documents. He transferred an inventory of automatic firearms to a new company, Red Jacket Firearms LLC. The three shareholders allege they were never informed of the transfer, and subsequently learned their shares are now worthless.

"William Hayden's sole intention in transferring the firearms was to comply with the ATF and federal regulations regarding automatic firearms," Hayden's attorney, Michael Reese Davis, writes in a memo. "Mr. Hayden did not intend to defraud or deceive anyone in connection with the stock certificates or in connection with the transfer of the firearms."

In one of the most recent developments in the case, ex-wife Trudy Lee voluntarily came forward with an affidavit supporting not her own son and father, but rather her ex-husband. In a memo to the judge, attorneys for the three plaintiffs cried foul, alleging Hayden had begun dating Lee shortly after she was named as a potential witness in the case, then had her arrested for simple burglary two days after the affidavit favorable to him was made official. Attorneys for Red Jacket have asked U.S. District Judge James Brady to dismiss the case. Meanwhile, Discovery Channel plans to begin airing the fourth season of Sons of Guns on April 19.

Red Jacket, the business featured in the Discovery Channel’s Sons of Guns “reality” show, has gotten themselves into hot water with our friends at the ATF. Seems their inventory system isn’t any better than their safety practices. The loss of the FFL, according to tmz.com, has resulted in the business’s owner, William Hayden, along with his daughter Stephanie, having to work for an employee in order to stay in business…

Things went swimmingly until 2009 … when the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms conducted a routine inspection of RJF and discovered 10 guns registered to the company could not be accounted for … a big, BIG problem. We’re told the feds pinned the blame on William and Stephanie — and were looking to take serious action that could have resulted in the end of RJF.

But law enforcement sources tell us … the Hayden’s struck a deal with feds in 2010, in which the two agreed to surrender their gun-making licenses … and in exchange, they could appoint a LICENSED person to take over the company. It didn’t take long for William and Stephanie to pick their successor … they went with Vincent Buckles… — another gunsmith often featured on the reality show.

Buckles has evidently left the business, too, and now the Hayden’s have dug up another FFL holder to be the licensed firearms dealer for Red Jacket.

They’ll likely use anyone with a pulse – and an FFL – in order to keep the business going and the Discovery Channel dollars coming in. We’re sure that the Haydens avoiding a frog march and criminal charges had nothing at all to do with the fact that they have a television show. Guess no one ever told them the ATF can be sticklers about keeping track of guns. Unless they’re headed south of the border, that is.

Just TV right?

[ericlw]

Anyone coming on here claiming to be associated with red jacket has a uphill climb ahead of them. From what I have heard and read; red jacket doesn't have the best reputation after their little tv show. Most here are interested in real numbers to back up your products not just saying our product is quieter then our competitors product. As with any business they make some great products and some real garbage. If you have a great product then all you need to do is back that up with real data and it will speak for itself.

[continuity]

... I didn't see how anyone could take RJ serious after watching one show even if the claim is it's only TV. Come on!

Why don't you relax bro? No need to beat a dead horse. Lets give this guy some room.

[continuity]

Can this post be transferred as a new topic or do I need to re submit?

it can be transfered, but suggest you not make requests at this stage, Just make a new post... in the appropriate area.

[Emilio]

Why don't you relax bro? No need to beat a dead horse. Lets give this guy some room.

Was that " some room" or " some rope"?

I will say Joe is the smart one there and the most innovative. ( he should leave)

The bullpup 10/22 was nice but many complaints on delivery. ( yep, he should leave that circus )

[jdasilva]

I come to silencertalk to learn from those in the business & those who've gone before me dealing with silencer data. what i don't come here for is drama. I want to see what rjf is offering & working on just like all the silencer companies. If their products don't have what it takes then it is what it is. So i respectfully ask that if you do not have anything constructive to say/ask about nfa products to please silence yourself so the rest of us don't have to keep clicking multiple pages to find actual content.

[continuity]

I come to silencertalk to learn from those in the business & those who've gone before me dealing with silencer data. what i don't come here for is drama. I want to see what rjf is offering & working on just like all the silencer companies. If their products don't have what it takes then it is what it is. So i respectfully ask that if you do not have anything constructive to say/ask about nfa products to please silence yourself so the rest of us don't have to keep clicking multiple pages to find actual content.

I present... a drama post.

Don't play games. What questions do you have?

[continuity]

Why don't you relax bro? No need to beat a dead horse. Lets give this guy some room.

Was that " some room" or " some rope"?

I will say Joe is the smart one there and the most innovative. ( he should leave)

The bullpup 10/22 was nice but many complaints on delivery. ( yep, he should leave that circus )

I was thinking relax... as in lets give the benifit of doubt.

[Emilio]

I come to silencertalk to learn from those in the business & those who've gone before me dealing with silencer data. what i don't come here for is drama. I want to see what rjf is offering & working on just like all the silencer companies. If their products don't have what it takes then it is what it is. So i respectfully ask that if you do not have anything constructive to say/ask about nfa products to please silence yourself so the rest of us don't have to keep clicking multiple pages to find actual content.

Two pages for a RJ thread?

Joe could have saved everyone's time by posting reliable data on the first free promo post.( if anyone is going to take him/them seriously)

With RJ you will always get drama because of thier passed. ( which was constructively posted )

[hunter2]

No shortage of hammers here!

[MOJO@RJF]

To many non informational post to reply to so I'll do a blanket Statement.

Guys I knew about the uphill battle here and even discussed it with the Forum ownership, I have a thick skin and will let the products speak for themselves, Albeit quietly speaking... I need cans in the hands of people that have experience and a voice, all I'm asking is give them a try or ask your local NFA dealer to see about getting a demo scheduled. "Nothing sells a product like the product it self " with that in mind I have about 20 cans in the hands of reviewers right now. We will be posting some videos shortly of comparisons and the manufacturing area.

As I type this I have gun powder on my hands from a Suppressor Demonstration. I just returned from local Sheriff department range who is looking at upgrading their 5.56 can and .22 cans, they were impressed and had many great things to say about the comparisons.

I already had my Flame proof suit on, with my ceramic ass and crotch plates in place and knew what to expect but believe me I would have not come here to the Premier Suppressor Knowledge base unless I was passionate about our products and believe wholeheartedly we have something to offer. I know there is minimal moderation here and I for one appreciate it.

Flame away , but let keep it technical and or informational.


OH BTW those Lawsuits were recently thrown out without merit, but it's the cost of being "Famous" .
I had a guy show up that was "friend that went to LA Tech" with me. I only taught a couple 2-3 week summer classes at LATech (which he was not in) and I went to LSU and SELU and LCTCS... needless to say when I met him he was asking for stuff... and had never met me in his life... "Cousins" and "great nieces" show up all the time.

[MOJO@RJF]

The Crew records about 600 hours of footage shot over a 14-16 day period with up to 21 cameras for each 42 min show...

We are offten surprised by what story they can tell when we see the show!

Don't confuse the show or show builds with our real products, I'm sure you enjoy Movies, treat it as such.

Now you get $$$ for TV because of ignorant people who like to see thing blown up and can now afford a CNC and mill that no one knows how to use!

TV don't pay the bills, but it is a hell of a marketing tool and has brought thousands of new shooters in our community and industry and more people into the world of NFA.

I'm glad you watched it but again don't confuse our products with TV show stuff though we sell plenty of t shirts because of it too.

WHAT?!? TV is for "entertainment?" You should probably show a disclaimer during the Intro. Many of us obviously believe your show to be a Biographical Documentary.

In fact, I'm sure many workshop engineers have wondered why you are on Arts & Entertainment, instead of Biography or CNN. After all, your producers are broadcasting uneditted News Coverage, not Art or Entertainment. Right?
(Please don't leak my sarcasm.)

[Emilio]

Joe, I admire your tough skin and was serious about you leaving RG.

It took Harley a while to get over AMF too.

Some will consider RG here offensive and its about credibility and product. Please no more excuses from the show, many shows have been real and the camera can expose many things .


"LSU" is not a school, you will find some members here with "LSU" in their sig line. It stands for " Liberty Suppressor Underground". I came up with the term when Liberty wasn't getting the respect they " deserved". They too had thick skin but metered everything with proper equipment on video and also had independent testing @ NFAtalk and they provide great service! NOW they are well known and respected because of merit ,integrity , and great products. This should show you I'm not heartless or rabid.

You have a history to over come, your cans where likened to freeze plugs in a tube and of corse the TV show. It's not about less moderation here, it's about proof. This is not the first puppet show for most and many of us have several cans and a ton of firearms.

Now, 22 cans are common and can only go so quiet, today it comes down to Cleaning disassembly, and something with a new twist..... Aluminum sucks for cleaning.

This is a very informative forum , You would do VERY well asking members here what they want to see that no one else provides.

Do you know what some of us REALLY want? A 12 and 20ga *PUMP* shotgun suppressor preferably on a barrel as to not buy the whole gun, common like Mossberg and 870. For some reason this has been BADLY NEEDED in the states but is common in Europe.

So there's your tip, I hope it's technical enough for you. Oh, and meter meter meter.

Quit the RJ sales pitch and post what really matters. (#'s) your best bet is to take a drive and let NFA test your can because that's the only way we will believe it.

[MOJO@RJF]

Thank you Emilio,



"Do you know what some of us REALLY want? A 12 and 20ga *PUMP* shotgun suppressor preferably on a barrel as to not buy the whole gun, common like Mossberg and 870. For some reason this has been BADLY NEEDED in the states but is common in Europe."

hmmmm.... Have you been snooping around here ? Since you brought it up Can I get a poll to see how many would be interested in this?

Joe, I admire your tough skin and was serious about you leaving RG.

It took Harley a while to get over AMF too.

Some will consider RG here offensive and its about credibility and product. Please no more excuses from the show, many shows have been real and the camera can expose many things .


"LSU" is not a school, you will find some members here with "LSU" in their sig line. It stands for " Liberty Suppressor Underground". I came up with the term when Liberty wasn't getting the respect they " deserved". They too had thick skin but metered everything with proper equipment on video and also had independent testing @ NFAtalk and they provide great service! NOW they are well known and respected because of merit ,integrity , and great products. This should show you I'm not heartless or rabid.

You have a history to over come, your cans where likened to freeze plugs in a tube and of corse the TV show. It's not about less moderation here, it's about proof. This is not the first puppet show for most and many of us have several cans and a ton of firearms.




Now, 22 cans are common and can only go so quiet, today it comes down to Cleaning disassembly, and something with a new twist..... Aluminum sucks for cleaning.

This is a very informative forum , You would do VERY well asking members here what they want to see that no one else provides.

Do you know what some of us REALLY want? A 12 and 20ga *PUMP* shotgun suppressor preferably on a barrel as to not buy the whole gun, common like Mossberg and 870. For some reason this has been BADLY NEEDED in the states but is common in Europe.

So there's your tip, I hope it's technical enough for you. Oh, and meter meter meter.

Quit the RJ sales pitch and post what really matters. (#'s) your best bet is to take a drive and let NFA test your can because that's the only way we will believe it.

[JasonM]

Emilio nailed it above.

Joe, first- welcome.

Second, i will leave all show stuff out. And that said, the suppressor products we have seen come out of RJF to date have been atrocious.
Really really bad in design, production, and performance.

I applaud you in your efforts to up your game.

Your posts so far, in conjunction with your website bring up a lot of questions/concerns. This is a very informed group here (by and large) and we don't generally buy into hype.

It'll be a hard road for you here with claims like "superior", "easy cleaning", "compares with the best", "Quietest system on the planet!".

This is an example, quoted from your website, emphasis is mine:

Suppressed 50 BMG 5 round bolt action rifle

This is the Quietest 50BMG system on the planet!

Built on a custom 22" match grade Safety Harbor SHTF50 5 round magazine fed bolt action AR-15 Upper

Exterior: Titanium external tube

Interior: 316 Stainless Monocore with director blast baffle (Hybrid reflex/integral design)

Over 35 dB drop - has measured below 119 dB overall

Huh? What? You are either as high as Will, or all the stuff you are feeding us about quality, performance, and metering is wrong.

The bolt closing on a typical AR is 117dB, and yet your 50cal gives us 119db? Sorry, no.

Get a real meter, learn how to use it, keep it calibrated, and compare (on the same days, with the same guns and ammo) your stuff to current top-of-the-line.

"Ear" tests, and youtube videos don't cut it.

Don't play games like those clowns at Shooter's Depot - with bad videos scamming via the use of subsonic ammo, etc.

Just glancing at the specs of stuff, all weights and lots of sizes and material choices seem generations behind.

Saying you just did a demo for LE doesn't mean anything unless we know what other products they compared it to. (Not hard to win a contest in a vacuum).

"parlor tricks" like running a .22 can full auto and then saying "it lives" might impress on arfcom, but any quality .22 can these days can and should do that.

You should get involved in the industry- the American Silencer Association has been gaining a lot of momentum over the past couple years and puts on industry shoots throughout the year. The next one is the day before the NRA show in April this year. You should bring out your toys and you'll have the opportunity to directly compare to all the other industry players.

[MOJO@RJF]

That is my intent but to start with the grassroots like here on this forum.

Who has a meter that does reviews? Any one in Louisiana that wants to do a test? Our E-forms are coming through fast right now!

"You should get involved in the industry- the American Silencer Association has been gaining a lot of momentum over the past couple years and puts on industry shoots throughout the year. The next one is the day before the NRA show in April this year. You should bring out your toys and you'll have the opportunity to directly compare to all the other industry players"

Emilio nailed it above.

Joe, first- welcome.

Second, i will leave all show stuff out. And that said, the suppressor products we have seen come out of RJF to date have been atrocious.
Really really bad in design, production, and performance.

I applaud you in your efforts to up your game.

Your posts so far, in conjunction with your website bring up a lot of questions/concerns. This is a very informed group here (by and large) and we don't generally buy into hype.

It'll be a hard road for you here with claims like "superior", "easy cleaning", "compares with the best", "Quietest system on the planet!".

This is an example, quoted from your website, emphasis is mine:

Suppressed 50 BMG 5 round bolt action rifle

This is the Quietest 50BMG system on the planet!

Built on a custom 22" match grade Safety Harbor SHTF50 5 round magazine fed bolt action AR-15 Upper

Exterior: Titanium external tube

Interior: 316 Stainless Monocore with director blast baffle (Hybrid reflex/integral design)

Over 35 dB drop - has measured below 119 dB overall

Huh? What? You are either as high as Will, or all the stuff you are feeding us about quality, performance, and metering is wrong.

The bolt closing on a typical AR is 117dB, and yet your 50cal gives us 119db? Sorry, no.

Get a real meter, learn how to use it, keep it calibrated, and compare (on the same days, with the same guns and ammo) your stuff to current top-of-the-line.

"Ear" tests, and youtube videos don't cut it.

Don't play games like those clowns at Shooter's Depot - with bad videos scamming via the use of subsonic ammo, etc.

Just glancing at the specs of stuff, all weights and lots of sizes and material choices seem generations behind.

Saying you just did a demo for LE doesn't mean anything unless we know what other products they compared it to. (Not hard to win a contest in a vacuum).

"parlor tricks" like running a .22 can full auto and then saying "it lives" might impress on arfcom, but any quality .22 can these days can and should do that.

You should get involved in the industry- the American Silencer Association has been gaining a lot of momentum over the past couple years and puts on industry shoots throughout the year. The next one is the day before the NRA show in April this year. You should bring out your toys and you'll have the opportunity to directly compare to all the other industry players.

[JasonM]

That is my intent but to start with the grassroots like here on this forum.

Who has a meter that does reviews? Any one in Louisiana that wants to do a test? Our E-forms are coming through fast right now!

"You should get involved in the industry- the American Silencer Association has been gaining a lot of momentum over the past couple years and puts on industry shoots throughout the year. The next one is the day before the NRA show in April this year. You should bring out your toys and you'll have the opportunity to directly compare to all the other industry players"

Not sure exactly what you're saying there, and i hope you take my post as constructive (along with the criticism).

We here are somewhat "grassroots", but we are also pretty knowledgable. (well, most of us).

[Emilio]

Joe, a poll on SG suppressors would be great but the outcome is predictable.

You can read this. viewtopic.php?f=133&t=80921

I know this will not be easy but it will be a " game changer" in the US market. Im sure overcoming length and size and even the pump area for integ will be challenging but a manageable sized SD shotgun wouldn't even have to be super quiet to sell well.

I find myself browsing " hushpower " often in frustration http://www.hushpower.co.uk/

Some vids, there are better ones though.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BRNQ_FwKcoU

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_6KYU0QPZC ... 6KYU0QPZCI

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rdKxpH_5gwE

Sorry for the early rants but Would love to hear see anything " you" have going on this.

[MOJO@RJF]

Absolutely as constructive! I was a teacher for 13 years. Basically I would need a big F/U to deem it else-wise...

I definitely want to get highly involved in the industry, and this is the start of it.

We had a great reputation before the show with AK builds via Grassroots on Forums such as these. Building suppressors was a cool thing then for us 'cause Suppressors were neat but our machinery was limited, we did what we could. We don't have many machine limitations these days and have some very talented individuals for engineering, prototyping and testing!

That is my intent but to start with the grassroots like here on this forum.

Who has a meter that does reviews? Any one in Louisiana that wants to do a test? Our E-forms are coming through fast right now!

"You should get involved in the industry- the American Silencer Association has been gaining a lot of momentum over the past couple years and puts on industry shoots throughout the year. The next one is the day before the NRA show in April this year. You should bring out your toys and you'll have the opportunity to directly compare to all the other industry players"

Not sure exactly what you're saying there, and i hope you take my post as constructive (along with the criticism).

We here are somewhat "grassroots", but we are also pretty knowledgable. (well, most of us).

[66427vette]

Send me info on demo cans.

[Fulmen]

Don't confuse the show or show builds with our real products, I'm sure you enjoy Movies, treat it as such

OK, fine. These sort of shows are set up to entertain and may not give a representative view of what you actually know and do. And I'm sure that the TV coverage puts you in touch with a lot of customers you'd otherwise would never see in your shop. Business is business, I get that. But, at what cost?
What kind of customers do you actually attract? My impression is that you're pandering to the lowest possible denominator, do you really think that people interested in build quality and craftsmanship will pick up the phone after seeing that show? If they do, I'm at a loss to explain why. I can't think of a single friend that would be caught dead in your shop, and these include machinists, gunsmiths and enthusiasts that are willing to pay real money for premium work.
Now I realize there is a marked for the things you do on the show and if this keeps you employed I'm happy for you, I really am. But I also think you're promoting the image of gun enthusiasts as lobotomized yokels that shouldn't be let near anything more dangerous than a rubber spoon...

[66427vette]

Send demo cans to a few dealers on here for an honest review.