How could AAC improve the Element 2?

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1_ar_newbie
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How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by 1_ar_newbie » Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:57 pm

Mike Mers from AAC here.

What could AAC do to the Element 2 to make it better suited for your needs?

What other products do you see competing with the Element?

Be specific we will be studying this info for our 2014 market analysis.
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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by MrFixIt7 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:14 pm

Personally I'd like to see some method of separating the outer tube from the baffles so that cleaning intervals spaced further without the potential to be lead welded to the tube. Not sure what patents are already on that given some of the other manufacturers but it seems like one of the only areas left to improve on that can imo.

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by RJT » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:14 pm

Removable rear cap
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by Bendersquint » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:46 pm

Removable rear mounts, we have replaced a bunch of the sealed ones for your customers.

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by srt-4_uk » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:32 pm

A QD feature with inexpensive mounts. While my Griffin Checkmate isnt the quietest, it gets the most use because it's convenient.

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by laxguy59 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:42 pm

1_ar_newbie wrote:Mike Mers from AAC here.

What could AAC do to the Element 2 to make it better suited for your needs?

What other products do you see competing with the Element?

Be specific we will be studying this info for our 2014 market analysis.
The Element is competing with the Sparrow and Spectre II. When stainless internal cans are brought up these always seem to be the recommendation.

The Element is almost $100 more than a Sparrow in most stores. and $200 more than the Spectre II.

Both of those suppressors protect the tube from debris, the Element doesn't.

While the Element is light, it just isn't worth the cost increase while still having an unprotected tube.

So make baffles that protect the tube, and bring the cost down. I rarely look at AAC because I feel I can get similar performance for less cost.

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strobro32
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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by strobro32 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:49 pm

^
This... exactly.
If it doesn't splatter, shatter, burst or explode, it's not worth shooting.

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by John4045 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:19 pm

For me, the Element 2 goes head to head with the Sparrow, Spectre II, and Kodiak (to a lesser degree). I'd throw in the new Gemtech G-core 22 can in there....but we'll have to see when they start hitting store/customers shelves.

I think the Element 2 gets a slight knock compared to the Sparrow and Spectre due to the ease of cleaning. Speaking from experience, it's not too terribly difficult to clean compared to the Sparrow and Spectre. All you hear about .22 cans is lead build-up, how dirty they get, etc, etc. So many buyers really put a requirement on ease of cleaning. Just seeing a dealer demonstrate how to clean a Sparrow versus an Element to a customer....you can see that lightbulb go off in their heads.

I do wish that the Element's baffles didn't have a tendency to weld themselves to the tube. I know it's not avoidable, but I wish I didn't have to clean it as often for fear of the baffles being stuck.

The price point is a major factor for consumers going the Sparrow/Spectre route. The Element 2 is $100-$200 more than the Sparrow and Spectre. Let's say on a good day you can find an Element 2 for $460-ish, that's online as well. Locally, it's more like $500. The Sparrow is $400ish, Spectre is $350ish. That's a 20-30% premium for two cans that provide the "ease of cleaning" feature. The advantages of the Element 2 doesn't justify the added cost or add enough value (weight savings, super quiet on pistols) over the other two cans. At least not a 20-30% increase in my opinion. My few local dealers sell boatloads of Sparrow/Spectres due to price alone. Many of them are first time suppressor buyers as well. I purchased an Element 2 just to add to the collection, but it probably would not have been my first choice between a Element/Sparrow/Spectre debate.

If something could be done to reduce price, something similar to what AAC did with the 556SD/762Sd vs M42000/762SDN, that would be ideal. Along with having those baffles not potentially getting welded to the tube.

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by 66427vette » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:36 pm

Cut the price by 50 to 75 bucks. Most customers here do not even give it a second look. I move 10 swr/ sil co .22cans to every Element. Main customer reason being price even after they shoot them all side by side.
Last edited by 66427vette on Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by doubloon » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:30 pm

Can't think of anything new to add to what's been said that's practical.

Given all the cans in this class are pushing the limits of performance already ....

Price, removable end caps and ease of disassembly are the only practical improvements to compete in the market.

I know when I recommend 22 cans to people I recommend Sparrow and Spectre over everything else for total value ... price, performance, durability and convenience of maintenance. If somebody wants to pay a few more bucks I usually recommend Liberty.

A couple years ago Titanium was all that and a bag of chips until people were confronted with the sticker shock. I know I was all about saving weight on the muzzle until I saw how much weight it would take out of my wallet. I think Titanium still has a place in bigger bore rifle cans but it's not really practical for me in a 22 can.

Like vette says if you don't do anything but drop the price you'll probably get more bites but it won't address all the issues for the total value.
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Emilio
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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by Emilio » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:35 pm

Cleaning , cleaning, cleaning.

CTA baffles are hard to beat, yesterday I was cleaning my Element 1 next to my SWR's and dreaded taking it apart compared to the others.

Still like the sound, size, and weight but you need to make it easy to take down and clean. The fixed end cap on the II made it worse.
What other products do you see competing with the Element?


SWR is kicking your butt with everything, time for new stuff and pricing . If they start making light short rifle cans you are in big trouble! :mrgreen:
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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by lopezel » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:47 pm

Long time lurker here but decided to register to give my opinion on this thread.

The AAC Element 2 was my first suppressor and I really like it but honestly I only bought it because I could not find a Spectre 2 in stock locally. As a first time NFA buyer, the cheaper price point of the Spectre and Sparrow was much more appealing than paying $525 for the Element, $200 for the transfer tax, and $275 for my newly drafted NFA trust. also, I have only had the Element since September 2013 but the finish started scratching off almost immediately. It doesn't bother me so much anymore but it does look like crap now. The finish seems to wear off if I look at it wrong. I'd definitely like a more durable finish, especially when I paid a premium over the other .22 suppressors on the market. Granted, I don't know how well the finish on other suppressors holds up since I have no experience with them but the Element's is just downright lacking.

Im now waiting on a Spectre 2 that was efiled in December and a Tirant45 as well as an SDN-6 that were both mailed off on labor day last year. This NFA stuff is addicting!

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Price point and cleaning

Post by STL/N.E.R.D.S. » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:55 pm

2 Major points for loss in sales, Price point, then the cleaning aspect, your fine in suppression..

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by RJT » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:56 pm

Make sure current E2s can be upgraded to whatever changes are made to the new and improved, new and improved E2.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by smokey1 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:06 am

From someone owning several rimfire cans( Spectre II, Sparrow, Element 2), they are all excellent cans. Don't like the first round pop from the sparrow's mono core design. All stainless baffles for ultrasonic cleaning purposes is helpful.

Don't care for removable rear mounts as removable items(threaded bits) tend to loosen over time and don't like having the can body loosening from the rear suppressor mount which can/does get stuck on the barrel threading/host weapon. I use Tornado Technologies and their threads are 1st class in my book.

Prefer the clean lines of a round, slightly knurled rear end cap/mount on a suppressor with pistol or rifle. Simply a personal preference.

Regarding price point, view the rimfire segment as entry level suppressor market. For many a rimfire suppressor is the first can purchased. AAC could consider is offering a manufacture discount coupon with a time period(say one year). Example: purchase a Element II can(standard pricing) and receive a factory coupon after registering the Element II with AAC(manufacture). This discount coupon is good towards the purchase of a centerfire AAC suppressor. Call it a brand loyalty coupon if you will.

A $200.00 tax stamp fee is required by all. However, the 6-9 month waiting period for a $400-500 rimfire suppressor is getting old. Really, what is the difference between $100.00 delta on a specialty item that takes 6-9 months before you can own/use it. Then again, I shoot premium rimfire ammo and not generic bulk pack 22LR ammo either.

Offer a Mike Mers "special addition" ELement II suppressor pouch( same crazy color/pattern as your signature tradeshow sweaters). Visually easier to find in the dealers display case and while searching the back of my gun safe.
Smokey

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by rimshaker » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:06 am

Start doing The Skinny videos again.

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by MCKNBRD » Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:58 pm

The Element 2 is a premium can. What do shooters get for their extra $100-$150 over the Sparrow? Bragging rights that their can is Titanium and a little lower FRP; the can is lighter, but harder to disassemble and clean.

What should the Element 3 offer? Hard to say; the 2 suppresses well, so you'd be OK if you kept the current K baffle, performance wise. There is the market stigma of having 'old school' technology, though. I'd say go for something totally aesthetic; 90% of the time you're looking at the tube...do something 'cool' with the can that differentiates it from the rest of the black, 1" diameter & 5-6" long suppressors out there. 'Diamond plate' look, grooves, ridges, knurling, something. Yeah, it adds steps in manufacturing, but it would be neat to have a can that had character. Materials wise, I'd say keep the blast baffle 17-4, but look into using 7075 for the rest of the stack to lighten it a little more. Also, consider dropping 1 baffle; it would shorten the suppressor by about 3/4" & help reduce weight. Maybe go to a 1.125" OD and tweak the K baffle a little to use the radial volume better. Removable caps on both ends are good.

If you could get premium performance at 3.5oz, with an MSRP at around $400, you wouldn't be able to make them fast enough.

JMHO, of course. Some other ideas, too, but they'd probably add too much cost without enough benefit.

Byrdman

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by wacki » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:18 am

If you must keep the K baffles then clam shell it up like the sparrow.

Also, the element is supposed to have the worst blowback. Is that fixable?

I own an essence, sparrow and Spectre. I was tempted by the elements size and weight but passed when I heard about the blowback and difficulty of cleaning.

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by MCKNBRD » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:33 am

wacki wrote:If you must keep the K baffles then clam shell it up like the sparrow.

Also, the element is supposed to have the worst blowback. Is that fixable?

I own an essence, sparrow and Spectre. I was tempted by the elements size and weight but passed when I heard about the blowback and difficulty of cleaning.
As I understand it, blowback and FRP are closely related. You want less blowback? No problem...increase the volume in the blast chamber & give the initial burst at uncorking a place to go before being restricted/redirected. Thing is, first round pop LOVES a big blast chamber. So, less blowback results in more FRP. Start working the gasses sooner via a smaller blast chamber, and you increase the dwell time for the pressure, resulting in more blowback (with less FRP).

As R.A. Heinlein often said in his novels...'TANSTAAFL'

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by m1garand30064 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:49 pm

The one feature I think it lacks is ease in taking it apart and putting it back together. The sound performance, size, and weight are all perfect.
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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by 57fairlane » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:15 pm

wacki wrote:If you must keep the K baffles then clam shell it up like the sparrow.
The clamshells are patented . . . hence why whoever it was tried the 1-piece sleeve and everyone else is stuck with encapsulated baffles.

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by doubloon » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:50 pm

MCKNBRD wrote:...
As R.A. Heinlein often said in his novels...'TANSTAAFL'
...
Rep'd!
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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:59 pm

57fairlane wrote:
wacki wrote:If you must keep the K baffles then clam shell it up like the sparrow.
The clamshells are patented . . . hence why whoever it was tried the 1-piece sleeve and everyone else is stuck with encapsulated baffles.
Tactical Solutions did the 1 piece split clamshell. Not sure how many made it to market though.

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by srt-4_uk » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:45 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
57fairlane wrote:
wacki wrote:If you must keep the K baffles then clam shell it up like the sparrow.
The clamshells are patented . . . hence why whoever it was tried the 1-piece sleeve and everyone else is stuck with encapsulated baffles.
Tactical Solutions did the 1 piece split clamshell. Not sure how many made it to market though.
Surefire did it on the 2012 pre production version of the Ryder. Or was it 2011....or maybe 2013.

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Re: How could AAC improve the Element 2?

Post by JasonM » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:47 am

srt-4_uk wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:Tactical Solutions did the 1 piece split clamshell. Not sure how many made it to market though.
Surefire did it on the 2012 pre production version of the Ryder. Or was it 2011....or maybe 2013.
Good memory, yes it was the SHOT2012 vers of the ryder:

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