3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

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S4area51
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3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by S4area51 »

Interesting Ti can, using the 3D printing (laser sintering) method.
http://imgur.com/a/upE5o
Is this the future? Will the structural integrity be compromised, even though the metal is still being fused together? I am curious to see how much weight savings can be had from using this method. Sorry, I don't have any internal pics.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by Historian »

S4area51 wrote:Interesting Ti can, using the 3D printing (laser sintering) method.
http://imgur.com/a/upE5o
Is this the future? Will the structural integrity be compromised, even though the metal is still being fused together? I am curious to see how much weight savings can be had from using this method. Sorry, I don't have any internal pics.
Metallurgical advances will follow. For example introducing 'cooperative' yet dissimilar
materials. For instance carbon nano tubes along with a few other rare earth metals added to TI are being
rumored to be a particular area of investigation. Nozzle technology will
be evolved also inspired by spider spinnerets.


Just think of the first Xerox machines in the 1970's costing mega-bucks to our present day $150.00
desk-top high resolution Canon color laser printers.

One also remembers the historical
advance of copper to bronze weapons, etc.

A variation of the old WW I song might be apropos: "How are you going to keep them
down on the farm after they have seen Paris and can print any weapons
parts without needing a lathe or milling machine."

Brave new world.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by Meche_03 »

Would like to know what post treatment they received.
Hot isostatic press?
Edm to insure bore clearance?
Heat treatment?
Looks like a machined thread adapter plug is installed at the muzzle attachment end in one pic.

Don't know if it will save much weight or decrease noise more than typical cans as of yet. As the design evolves past typical designs it may. From the met. samples I've inspected from additive metals, they all are still lacking in microstructure and density when compared to wrought. HIP and heat treatment can make a good part look excellent. There is no fixing bad parts.

Definitely decrease inventory on the shelf awaiting assembly, and will decrease assembly time and action required.

Much faster to test new designs. Model it and hit print. Change baffle design, can dimensions, number of baffles......just model and print. No cad/cam, gcode editing, mill and lathe setup and tooling. Using a standard thread insert on the muzzle end one could modify the design dimensions so the cans assemble with no secondary machining. I can testify to all the benefits above. At work we have gone from concept to 3rd iteration prototype in 8 hours or less using plastic based 3d printers. We even have time for lunch, a break, and short presentation in that 8 hours. As the machine prints I can work on other aspects of the design instead of machining the part. I'd run a weeks worth of plastic or paper based 3d printer prototypes before I commented to the cost and time of a metal print.

I could easily see the addition of an integral heat shield around the primary pressure can. Perhaps introduce a venturi to use hot exhaust gas to pull cooler air into the void between the can and shield?
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by Fulmen »

Ah, the Norwegian Tronrud Engineering. They do a lot of custom work for offshore oil among other things. Exiting product, but expensive. IIRC it's around 5000NOK versus the general price of 1500-2500 NOK for more traditional designs with aluminum body (some with SS inserts). Haven't seen it myself or read any thorough tests, but it seems to perform well. 3D printing allows for quite complex designs, but complexity alone isn't any guarantee for good performance. I'm sure we'll see more and better designs in the future.

BTW, what you're seeing is the rear POM support ring, pretty much standard for telescopic cans. I'm having problems imagining the mounting threads being printed, the resolution on 3D printers aren't really good enough for that. Not sure if they are machined into the printed material of whether they use some sort of steel insert with coarser threads.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by Meche_03 »

Pictures look like a machined insert of some sort. Third pic down shows can printed with no support ring and no material present to cut the support ring from. Same pic clearly shows "threads" printed into the silencer. But I would also expect post machining for good threads, or they are loose and being used to twist in the insert and create load up against a flat surface and perhaps a filler, solder, locktight.....being used to increase load transfer to the can. Titanium can gall on threads some times so the thread insert may be for that or to adapt one can to several different muzzle threads size/forms at the factory.

From the pics shown I can only see a integral jacket or stand off head shield as a unique feature.

Would love to see more pictures.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by Fulmen »

Those rear support rings are typically made from POM, most use a simple retaining ring but in this case it looks like it's threaded. It's designed to have a clearance of 0,1-0,2mm around the barrel and is there to take up any sideway forces from impact etc. It also prevents the can from scratching the barrel during mounting. For such applications printed threads should be more than adequate.

Haven't seen any cut-throughs or anything else that reveals the baffle design, been more than a little curious about that myself.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by wacki »

I'm more interested in how this impacts prototyping, baffle design, etc.

Can't wait till we start seeing some novel baffle designs.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by Meche_03 »

I've decided that the machined insert has a conical shoulder surface machined into it. This should help aid in lock up of the can and decrease the likelyhood of the can sagging off the end of the muzzle due to sloop in thread tolerances. Not quite as good as a over barrel two point mount but much more compact and clean.

The coloring of the insert reminds me of Teflon impregnated tiodize...titanium anodize, which would get rid of galling.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by Fulmen »

While I haven't seen this specific can I know how European telescopic cans are typically designed. It's most likely a simple POM/acetal bushing turned to fit (+0,1-0,2mm clearance) the barrel. It prevents scratching of the barrel and eliminates any bending of the muzzle threads. It would also reduce sagging if the can becomes loose. However it is not intended to be in contact with the barrel when properly mounted as this puts tension on the barrel causing erratic performance.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by Conqueror »

3D print quality will only improve with time. Right now it looks sort of crude and I wouldn't pay a premium to own one. But I bet in 10 years you'll have trouble telling a 3D printed silencer from a machined one.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by wacki »

Conqueror wrote:3D print quality will only improve with time. Right now it looks sort of crude and I wouldn't pay a premium to own one. But I bet in 10 years you'll have trouble telling a 3D printed silencer from a machined one.
That time is now. Unfortunately that quality of tech is expensive. There are only 7 metal printers in the world that can do ultra high resolution and SpaceX has 6 of them. I've seen the print quality first hand.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by Meche_03 »

What system is spacex using? What I've seen they are using Eos SLS systems for inconel and titaniums. I know there are more than 6 of those machines in the world. I know several other companies like ARCAM, Renisshaw, and Concept laser making systems too. Now to put it into prospective I think only 400-600 metal 3d printers were sold last year.


I'd just assumed the silencers above were made with an Arcam printer since Arcam is from Sweden and the silencers were made by a Norwegian company. Assumed they got along better than British, German, and Swiss.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by Fulmen »

Can't make out the name, but maybe you can?
http://www.tronrud.no/en/oil-and-gas/3d-laser-sintering
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by wacki »

Ill email my buddy that works there. I wasn't allowed to take photos when I was inside. They made a big deal as to how few of those machines there were in the world (single digit) and showed me an example of the work. It was a inch tall rook (chess piece) with an internal spiral stair case. The detail was amazing. The bricks and mortar were clearly defined and visible. Each step looked perfect. He stated the accuracy but I don't remember what it was.

I'll email him and find out.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by Historian »

wacki wrote:Ill email my buddy that works there. I wasn't allowed to take photos when I was inside. They made a big deal as to how few of those machines there were in the world (single digit) and showed me an example of the work. It was a inch tall rook (chess piece) with an internal spiral stair case. The detail was amazing. The bricks and mortar were clearly defined and visible. Each step looked perfect. He stated the accuracy but I don't remember what it was.

I'll email him and find out.
Might an interim step be to use the 3-D printers to create a lattice baffle structure with
machinable wax to be used in a lost wax process to create the baffles.

This could lead to unlimited 'fractal' surfaces that would create fluid logic
turbulence leading to increased diminution of gas discharge.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by Meche_03 »

Fulmen wrote:Can't make out the name, but maybe you can?
http://www.tronrud.no/en/oil-and-gas/3d-laser-sintering
It is an eos machine. It could very well be they were the first to buy the newer machine when it came out and thus be correct that they had 5 of 6 machines in the world. The Eos 290 is the latest from them.

I have several rook pieces made by different companies via differentmaterials , machines, and technologies. I have a clear resin version on an led night light because I can.. :wink: :wink:
Last edited by Meche_03 on Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by Meche_03 »

Historian wrote: Might an interim step be to use the 3-D printers to create a lattice baffle structure with
machinable wax to be used in a lost wax process to create the baffles.

This could lead to unlimited 'fractal' surfaces that would create fluid logic
turbulence leading to increased diminution of gas discharge.
There are software packages that create latticework structures from the solid models. You model the part and run it through the post process software and it creates different lattice designs. Original intent was to make parts lighter weight and maintain strength...similar to honeycomb aircraft panels. Less material and the printer can make the part faster because there is less metal to fuse together.

It's called 3d topology design...can not get a good picture to paste here.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by Joker31D »

When I worked at a Defense company I was given a demo of a setup that "Printed" Titanium that was printed in a gel like medium and it fired a laser at the gel to create supports for the Metal to be created, was back in 2008 before I went back on Active Duty, they were saying it was prohibited from being export and the company could only lease it and had to have a supervisor sign off on the expended Material to ensure none was missing when they printed with it... thought it was odd because they weighed the material to the gram after it was expended. Was a bit obsessive if you ask me, I worked on Aerospace projects as big as the Hubble and small as the IR systems for the shuttle landing gear they weren't as anal as that stuff was. But it printed in very small detail suitable for this to be easily be made, and with the right programmer even better, they were just starting to use programs like solidworks and the easier programs then but this was programmed in a proprietary system with its own stand alone toughbook, didnt recognize the OS, wasnt anything mainstream.
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Re: 3D Printed Titanium Suppressor

Post by GoodOlBuzz »

Here is a couple of awkwardly-produced, but informative, videos on Koenigsegg's 3D-printed variable turbochargers. It answers, in another context, many of the questions we have about the viability of printing suppressors out.

The turbocharger housings (which seem to be quite complex according to the video), the "internal moving parts" of the turbochargers, and the threads to attach the turbochargers, are all printed together simultaneously inside each other. Koenigsegg prints out a two-chambered housing for their turbochargers: a smaller, inner chamber for fast spool-up during low rpm's, and a larger chamber for high gas flow at high engine rpm's. "The two chamber twist around each other and the intermediate wall is bending around in a diagonal fashion around the turbine wheel . . . " says Mr. Koenigsegg. They are made to handle a high amount of very hot gasses. These parts are printed out of titanium and stainless steel. Mr. Koenigsegg says that after printing there is "next to nothing" finishing needed. (Please, I am trying to reproduce his words as best I can, and remember, English is not his mother tongue)

So the complex shapes with the materials we want for our suppressors, with the very tight manufacturing tolerances we need, are already being printed in three dimensions. Yes, it is expensive, but all the question we have about three dimensional printing of suppressors: the material questions and the quality questions are being answered.

Buzz :-)

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