Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

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techspy
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Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by techspy » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:52 pm

Ok, I will try to keep it short, to the point without any (much) opinion.

- I have a Liberty Mystic. 2nd time on my Walther PPX I have a baffle strike. First shot was fine, on the 2nd shot the can went flying and the booster was in two pieces. It was like it was unscrewed at the threads.

- Sent the unit to Liberty and received an email it was received, being evaluated and it should be shipped back in a couple of days with more info on the repair and a tracking #.

- A couple of days after that email I received an email from (withheld at this point) that they can not repair it. He advised the tube can not be repaired (small bulge and crack in it) and they they could not replace the tube as it is serialized. I understand all of that completely.

- I have my own opinion on why it failed but I am sure there is no point trying to convince them otherwise and will just accept their finding of "user error" and will chalk up the cost of repair.

- I tried to get the reason they could not repair it. After a lot of back and forth, I finally got them to say that the place where the damage was is where their company name/info is and pointed me to the following;

From ATF.gov:
"A damaged outer tube may be repaired by any Federal firearms licensee qualified to perform gunsmithing or by the registered owner. The repair may not alter the dimensions or caliber of the silencer, except that the length of the outer tube may be reduced, as set forth above. The repair may not be performed if it results in the removal, obliteration, or alteration of the serial number, as this would violate 18 U.S.C. § 922(k). In that case, the silencer may be returned to the registered owner in its original, damaged condition or destroyed. A replacement silencer must be registered and transferred to the registrant of the damaged silencer in the same manner as a new silencer, subject to the registration and transfer procedures of the NFA and GCA."

- I see the info about the serial number but what about the other company info etc. Can that be re-stamped if needed after the repair? According to the person I spoke to it can not.

- To be clear, this person stated that if the damage was in a location where there was not any stamping, they likely could repair it.

Thanks for any info.

EDIT UPDATE:

My dealer spoke to his contact at the ATF and confirmed that the serial number is the only issue with a repair. I have left a message for the owners of Liberty to see if this can be resolved. I just heard back and they stated they will now repair the core at my cost and allow me to have the sleeve repaired myself but that it would not be covered under warranty anymore. Now to see if my contact can weld the grade 9 titanium.

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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by 66427vette » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:49 pm

Are you reloading?

techspy
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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by techspy » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:55 pm

Nope. Factory FMJ 114gr non-subsonic rounds on a factory threaded Walther PPX

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Jt.kline19
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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by Jt.kline19 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:44 pm

techspy wrote:Nope. Factory FMJ 114gr non-subsonic rounds on a factory threaded Walther PPX
How is the torque shoulder on that? I had a baffle strike in my mystic a while back with an FNX 9 and it needed to be shouldered at the muzzle.
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techspy
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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by techspy » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:18 pm

Seems fine. I even checked with an alignment rod and it showed it was fine.

Update: After having gone through a different employee that actually listened to what I was saying, the issue is being resolved to my satisfaction. I probably won't go with this brand again as I would dread having to deal with that original employee for anything in the future.

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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by Jt.kline19 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:26 pm

techspy wrote:Seems fine. I even checked with an alignment rod and it showed it was fine.

Update: After having gone through a different employee that actually listened to what I was saying, the issue is being resolved to my satisfaction. I probably won't go with this brand again as I would dread having to deal with that original employee for anything in the future.
Well sorry to hear that liberty has always been a great company to me.
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In Memory of the First Person to Get Me Into Guns, and NFA. RIP Edward R. Kline USAF Retired, August 12, 1953- May 26, 2012

techspy
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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by techspy » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:56 pm

Thanks. I understand that I may be the minority and that you and many others may have had great service with them. Being a career law enforcement person and now in customer support for a very technical product, I understand that you can't go into a support situation assuming you know everything and not expect to have to prove your position when challenged. I was told information I knew to be incorrect but instead of acknowledging such, the first guy doubled down on his superior attitude and curtness. I guess if they were the only place that made suppressors I would just deal with it. But, there are other companies that would be glad to have my $ :D

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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by jdasilva » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:05 pm

I was thinking about getting the leonidas, but that drive the nail in the coffin. I don't play the run around game

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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by hunter2 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:35 pm

Sorry to hear you had troubles. Had them to make a special order 375 a couple of years ago and could not have asked for better service.

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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by dtom29 » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:55 am

jdasilva wrote:I was thinking about getting the leonidas, but that drive the nail in the coffin. I don't play the run around game
I wouldn't make my decision based on this incident. Not every story is the same from both sides and we have only heard one side. You won't find many (if any) other customer service problems with Liberty.

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doubloon
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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by doubloon » Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:49 am

dtom29 wrote:...
I wouldn't make my decision based on this incident. ...
This.

There's not a single business out there that hasn't had similar incidents.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

techspy
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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by techspy » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:22 am

Just to clarify, I have not advised anyone to stay away from this business. The reason for my post was to get input on the correctness of what I was being told. I found out it was not. Like I indicated, this all stemmed from one employee and when I was able to speak to another one, the issue was resolved. At one point when I was speaking to the original employee and pointed out that what was said and what was provided in the email I received was incorrect (saying that the damage was EXACTLY on the serial number and that prevented the repair, when in fact the damage was on other stamping and not the SERIAL number) he apologized very "artfully" as to not accept any responsibility for providing incorrect info. Without getting into too much detail, my suspicions about this employees customer service history was confirmed by another source.

Additionally, once the issue was brought to the attention of the owner by the proper employee the issue was resolved. That leads me to believe it IS a good company albeit with one issue with one employee. Anyway, yeah, you people don't know me from jack and there are always good and bad experiences from all companies so no one needs to assume that my side is biased just as I will not assume that anyone stating so is a fanboy of the company in question. Make your own decision and if you are in a similar situation, do a little research and don't just roll-over and accept what you are being told because someone is oozing a superior and condescending attitude.

Anyway, this thread has run its course. I don't see a need to continue it. Thanks for all the input guys.

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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by Tater_ga » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:20 am

I thought I might take a second and jump in real quick.

Here are a few pics of the crack in the can.

Image

Here is a picture of the stripped threads in the booster. And, then a pic of the baffle strike on the blast baffle.
Image

Image

It would appear that the booster was not properly threaded together. The stripping inside of the booster suggests that thread engagement was only on the first two threads. The fact that the blast baffle was struck shows that the can was out of concentricity from the bore and most likely due to the improper installation of the booster.



All of that being said, we have a policy in our company that states customers first. So, when "techspy" called and admitted that he might have made a mistake we said go ahead and send it in and let us see what we can do. Waiting on NFA items to approve can be a pain. So, we try and do everything we legally can to ensure our customers don't have to deal with ATF/Tax Stamp hassle.

That's where the grey area came in. Usually when there is a crack in the tube then the can is considered damaged beyond repair. We do not have the machines or the ability to weld titanium in our facility. We also do not have the x-ray machines or other equipment necessary to repair this type of thing. So, when a silencer has a crack in the tube it is considered unserviceable. This comes from an ATF ruling in the past that some people now call Gemtax. The atf.gov website has already been cited, so I won't restate it here. But, as it's written on the website it appears that repairs can be made if the serial number isn't damaged.

However, specifically citing just one part of the ATF's rulings on manufacturing/repairing a silencer isn't the whole story. Because of the location of the crack in this can, whoever attempts to make repairs will have to re-engrave Liberty's "roll mark" on the can. That would require at least a variance letter, which we are not willing to offer for several reasons. Time and resources being one, but the other being that we don't want to let someone else have the ability to use our markings on something we didn't make. There is a lot of liability there. And, without getting a ruling from the ATF on whether or not this is even legal we are at an impasse.

I'm sorry that you are having issues with how we are going about this, techspy. I have been in constant contact with Dave the whole time on this. Per his wishes, I have made a call to the ATF so that we can get this sorted out, properly. If they deem that a silencer can be repaired by obliterating the manufacturer's roll mark then we will be more than happy to move this along.
Last edited by Tater_ga on Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by techspy » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:45 am

Thanks for the clarification Brent. This whole issue could have been avoided if the info you decided to post here would have been provided to me in the first place instead of the following;

"He somehow failed to reassemble the booster and shot it with like 1 thread holding the booster retaining cap on. It sheered the thread and then baffle struck the core and had a bullet fragment impact the tube IN THE SERIAL NUMBER ITSELF AND CRACK THE TUBE."

I never tried to dispute the cause of the damage and indicated I had no issue paying for a repair. However, as you can see, the info you provided me as quoted above is incorrect and your insistent that that the quoted ATF law about the serial number is why you shouldn't be able to repair it.

In any case, after having gone through someone else that spoke to Dave, we have come to a resolution that I will pay for the baffle and use someone else that can repair the sleeve correctly. Or has that changed since yesterday?

See, I am further confused about your statements;

You say "So, when a silencer has a crack in the tube it is considered unserviceable."

Then you say "I have made a call to the ATF so that we can get this sorted out, properly. If they deem that a silencer can be repaired by obliterating the manufacturer's roll mark then we will be more than happy to move this along."

So does that mean if the ATF states it is ok to go along with the repair that you will change your original stance and and say that it IS repairable as opposed to "unserviceable"? I don't understand what the ATF saying has to do with your ability to PHYSICALLY repair the sleeve?

I have NEVER asked you or your company to do anything contrary to law. I simply pointed out that the info you provided me was not correct. For example when you maintained that you were prohibited by ATF law to repair it but also provided the following quote, you caused more contradictory info.

------------------------
May the outer tube of a registered silencer be repaired due to damage? If so, may the repair be done by someone other than the original manufacturer?

A damaged outer tube may be repaired by any Federal firearms licensee qualified to perform gunsmithing or by the registered owner. The repair may not alter the dimensions or caliber of the silencer, except that the length of the outer tube may be reduced, as set forth above. The repair may not be performed if it results in the removal, obliteration, or alteration of the serial number, as this would violate 18 U.S.C. § 922(k). In that case, the silencer may be returned to the registered owner in its original, damaged condition or destroyed. A replacement silencer must be registered and transferred to the registrant of the damaged silencer in the same manner as a new silencer, subject to the registration and transfer procedures of the NFA and GCA.
------------------------

By the way, I do not appreciate you posting the serial number of my suppressor.

Regards, John
Last edited by techspy on Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

rimshaker
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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by rimshaker » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:27 am

Perhaps it was just better to say upfront, "Crack in the tube? At the roll marks of all places? Sorry you're screwed. Better to just get a new can anyway after the damages. But hey, we sympathize so we will offer you a new can for half the price."

Or something to that effect. Liberty's roll markings/serial# are near the booster end specifically for being able to do repairs easily without potential tax stamp involvement again (at least i think so). Typical baffle rubs/strikes usually occur much farther down the can. Damage right at the first baffle and booster clearly indicate an improper attachment.

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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by techspy » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:31 am

EDIT UPDATE:

First, thanks for taking the time to speak to me on the phone just now Brent and thanks for removing the picture showing my serial number!

So it seems the situation has changed since I spoke to them yesterday. They are now waiting for clarification from the ATF on whether or not they can repair the baffle and send me the unit so that I can repair the sleeve. Seems the question now is NOT the serial number as initially stated and referenced in the quoted ATF reg, but is now the "roll mark" or company address where the damage is. It would have been nice to have received an update from them as opposed to having to call them in response to the previous post. In any case, who knows how long this will take so I am getting the unit sent back to me in the mean time and buying something else.

To be perfectly clear, I have NO issue with any extra checks and balances to make sure everything is in accordance with the law etc. I just do not like to have someone try to BS me with wrong info. This could have all been avoided by simply stating. "Sorry, we have no way of repairing a sleeve to ensure its safety regardless of where the damage is." as opposed to trying to blame the inability to repair it on the fact that it was ON THE SERIAL NUMBER ITSELF (when it wasn't).

Good god what a mess.

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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by Tater_ga » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:25 pm

I just got off of the phone with Ron Davis from Tech Branch at the ATF.


****THIS IS A BRIEF SUMMARY FROM THE ATF.GOV WEBSITE****
Pursuant upon 27 C.F.R. 478.92 AND 479.102:
The regulations require that the markings be conspicuous and legible, meaning that the markings may be placed on any external part, such as the outer tube or end cap.

ATF strongly recommends that manufacturers place all required markings on the outer tube of the silencer, as this is the accepted industry standard. Moreover, this practice eliminates the need to remark in the event an end cap bearing the markings is damaged and requires replacement.

Mr. Davis explained that if a silencer has a crack in the tube that cannot be repaired by the original manufacturer and the crack is where the silencer markings are placed then the silencer would have to be remarked by the individual conducting repairs. This would require a Form 1.

Also, because the original manufacturer is unable to conduct repairs we are unable to sell a core separate from the silencer itself without serializing the core and going through the same transfer as if it were a complete silencer.

Hopefully this information keeps anyone from getting confused on what you can or cannot do. I apologize for citing the wrong ruling in my original email to you techspy. Our offer still stands to replace your can and booster for the reduced price.
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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by techspy » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:31 pm

Thanks for the call and clarification Brent. I fully respect your right and decision to not repair the sleeve due to your safety and quality concerns. Apology accepted.

Have a good one.

John

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Re: Suppressor repair.. Feel like I am getting the runaround

Post by Tater_ga » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:35 pm

rimshaker wrote:Perhaps it was just better to say upfront, "Crack in the tube? At the roll marks of all places? Sorry you're screwed. Better to just get a new can anyway after the damages. But hey, we sympathize so we will offer you a new can for half the price."

Or something to that effect. Liberty's roll markings/serial# are near the booster end specifically for being able to do repairs easily without potential tax stamp involvement again (at least i think so). Typical baffle rubs/strikes usually occur much farther down the can. Damage right at the first baffle and booster clearly indicate an improper attachment.
Good advice. I do try to keep things brief when sending out these emails. Its always a delicate thing telling someone that their can is dead. We do everything we can to try and save a can before we chalk it up as DOA. Unfortunately, this one didn't work out that way.
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