broken suppressor - now a paperweight?

[Catskinner]

...
OK. that explains the tube then, but where is there info on the baffles having to be turned over by law, to get new ones replaced? This sounds hard to believe that nothing can be done here.
...

The letter you're cherry-picking from is the second one of a pair.

But these are "letters" not "rulings" and assuming they were valid for anyone other than the original addressee even without the GemTax it's still not possible to replace anything tax-free without the original components.

Both letters state the parts (unmarked silencer components) have to be returned and destroyed to be replaced without requiring a new registration tax. They have to be replaced on an exchange basis. Without the original components it's a new silencer and a new tax. Find those parts.

The piece of the letter your quoting states tube replacement is possible by the original manufacturer for silencers unusable due to a manufacturer defect. Even if GemTax had never happened the original components would be required for the manufacturer to examine and verify the silencer was defective. Without those parts no examination can be made, no silencer can be found defective and no replacement can be had without a new tax. Find those parts.

Sure AAC could give away a new silencer for free AND pay the tax based on the customer's hand to god he did everything right and the suppressor "just blew up" . I wouldn't. I would want to verify there was a defect so I could fix my manufacturing process. Find those parts.

edit to add: IS A LETTER LEGALLY BINDING? WHO MAKES THE LAWS?


So is a letter legally binding? And my point about AAC is if they can determine if they owner did obviously fire a machine gun or something through it. then it might not be covered, unless its an unconditional warranty. I didn't cherry pick it though, I found it relevant while trying to research an answer.

This was posted by bendersquint recently, and its relevant, and just shows the confusion the atf has sprinkled into the NFA, by not getting legally binding opinions of a judge.I feel they like it that way, because a judge would strike down most of the atf opinion papers, and take their lateral opinions out of their hands.

"It's just an opinion letter and nothing more. I seriously doubt it would stick and if it could then the ATF only has to issue another one saying they changed their minds and then its done.

What I would be concerned about is that the ATF might have the legal possibility of eliminating trusts as owners of NFA, since only persons can own NFA. I see that as more of a possibility than anything."

[Catskinner]

Cat, you have a severely limited understanding of the things you are speculating about. I'm done addressing your unwarranted rants. We are going to handle this situation as the best we can. We would rather not break any laws.

Thats cool, and its great you guys are taking care of this and standing behind your product. AAC just jumped to the front of the list for my first can Im looking at buying. Thanks for clarifying. I do have a severe limited understanding of the atf and their varied announcements on what is exactly legal and what is not. I follow all laws as best I understand them, and this particular section of law is by far the most confusing. All I try to do is draw out insightful commentary, and see how we can all go about challenging these arbitrary opinions and beliefs that the atf gives periodically. Nothing is personal, and I apologize if I offended you personally.

[L1A1Rocker]

That's much better now.

This post was made by Catskinner who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.

[Catskinner]

That's much better now.

This post was made by Catskinner who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.

Yep you ignore people that hand your ass to you in an online debate. Go back to practicing buggery with your buddies.

Nobody can show a law that says lost baffles need to be returned to get new ones sent out. There may be opinions, but opinions don't make standing laws.

[Bendersquint]

Nobody can show a law that says lost baffles need to be returned to get new ones sent out. There may be opinions, but opinions don't make standing laws.

Nobody can show a law that says a tube can not be replaced either....yet it is forbidden.

[Catskinner]

Nobody can show a law that says lost baffles need to be returned to get new ones sent out. There may be opinions, but opinions don't make standing laws.

Nobody can show a law that says a tube can not be replaced either....yet it is forbidden.

Very interesting. For something to be forbidden, in the sense we are talking, meaning illegal, I would think there would have to be a law against it then. So are these just opinions again from the atf? I really want to understand this, and it gets more confusing the deeper I go down the rabbit hole. Either its against the law or its not, nothing else matters does it? Legal, or not legal.

[tsands974]

The legalities here are vague and untested enough to be open to interpretation. Do you want to be on the receiving end if you interpret them one way and the ATF another in a litigation? It's not worth it to me.

[srs]

Nobody can show a law that says lost baffles need to be returned to get new ones sent out. There may be opinions, but opinions don't make standing laws.

Nobody can show a law that says a tube can not be replaced either....yet it is forbidden.

Very interesting. For something to be forbidden, in the sense we are talking, meaning illegal, I would think there would have to be a law against it then. So are these just opinions again from the atf? I really want to understand this, and it gets more confusing the deeper I go down the rabbit hole. Either its against the law or its not, nothing else matters does it? Legal, or not legal.

Do YOU have the money to fight that fight all the way to the Supreme Court? I don't, and I don't want to be put in prison or lose the right to vote and/or own firearms as part of a losing battle.

We have to pick our battles. I think it would be easier to get rid of the NFA entirely (as a grass roots effort) than it would to successfully fight the ATF as an individual.

-Steve

[a_canadian]

Yeah, it's a funny thing about this sort of police agency vagueness. Here in Canada we've got Canada Border Services Agency which present a related sort of 'law making on the fly' example. Not exactly police, they're not even allowed to have guns so far as I know. Or maybe that changed recently? Anyway, they're glorified security guards. And yet if they feel a whim, they go with it, and we as citizens can fill out all the forms we like and protest to Ottawa and we may, some day, get a hearing, but most likely it'll be a rubber stamp sort of thing. CBSA wins almost every argument. Most famously around my part of the country was the case of a book shop called 'Little Sisters' - LGBT sort of folks running it. Never went there myself, but I knew people who found it a very friendly book shop. They had all manner of crates of books seized without warrant nor explanation over the years. Cost them a lot of money. Why? Because some border guards felt that the material was indecent. They didn't have to prove it, just had to say it and it was a done deal. One especially bizarre example was a couple of cases of a new recipe book for families, focused on kid's recipes, stuff that's easy and fun to make. The problem? Two moms wrote it, two women who happened to be lesbians and their picture was on the cover. Fully clothed. Not kissing or anything. With their kids. There was no offensive content other than that fact. Wow, Christian moralizing much?

Little Sisters eventually won a court case against CBSA. Took something like 20 years and hundreds of thousands in legal fees, and it was more or less a hollow victory, but symbolic anyway. Of course CBSA continues to operate in much the same way, because they're basically unsupervised, and 'because terrorism.' Much like your own ATF and practically everybody's airport services agencies have used 9/11 as an excuse to do whatever the hell they want to do. Stealing iPads for instance. By the thousands apparently. And groping women and kids, taking and sharing naughty pictures, generally stomping all over people's civil rights and not giving a damn.

But what can an individual do besides vote and write some letters? Heck, even writing letters on some of the more controversial topics can get you on a watch list or worse. I would LOVE it if suppressors were not only legal but encouraged in my country. They are not. I have a friend who got caught with one he'd just finished machining at work, a snoopy fellow machinist with a bug up his nose reported him to management and he lost his job, lost his firearms license for 3 years, lost thousands of dollars worth of weapons. He was lucky. Could have been a 5 year ban, and he's applied for and is going to get back his sub-500fps airguns. Not the .50" long range gun though, not all the other nice toys. We're not sure if he's getting his valuable glass back yet... some nice Leupold stuff, top end. Sucks to like quiet shooting here. But cry about it to the RCMP or a politician? No thanks, I don't want to be raided nor have my communications monitored.

[rimshaker]

Catskinner, you fresh off the boat from europe or some place?

Just the NFA itself has been around here since 1934.... 80 YEARS!

The chances that your (well-intended?) rants will make a dent into those 80yrs are so miniscule that.... you might as well just save your breath and go to the range

[Catskinner]

Catskinner, you fresh off the boat from europe or some place?

Just the NFA itself has been around here since 1934.... 80 YEARS!

The chances that your (well-intended?) rants will make a dent into those 80yrs are so miniscule that.... you might as well just save your breath and go to the range

Tell that to women and blacks who couldn't vote for 80 years, or more . That means nothing if to me. It's either legal or illegal, just because some buruecrat says its legal or not not has no legal standing. I'm Always doing things that challenge the status quo.

You can't be arrested over stuff that's not illegal. This NFA stuff is going to start crumbling now because people are pushing the ill written "law". The SIG case is going to be a huge 1st one I'm sure.

[srs]

...You can't be arrested over stuff that's not illegal...

Bullshirt!

You absolutely can. You MAY eventually (2 days, weeks, months...) get out. You might not even have a conviction on your record. BUT, you will be poorer, and pissed off, and lots of other things. And you will, absolutely, forever after have an arrest record.

Your dream world hasn't existed since very shortly after the formation of our Republic, and likely won't exist again until AFTER the next civil war.

This horse is dead, stop beating him. Please.

[Catskinner]

...You can't be arrested over stuff that's not illegal...

Bullshirt!

You absolutely can. You MAY eventually (2 days, weeks, months...) get out. You might not even have a conviction on your record. BUT, you will be poorer, and pissed off, and lots of other things. And you will, absolutely, forever after have an arrest record.

Your dream world hasn't existed since very shortly after the formation of our Republic, and likely won't exist again until AFTER the next civil war.

This horse is dead, stop beating him. Please.

Just by you saying that shows how out of control this place is. You can be snatched off the street and thrown in jail for nothing. And you guys think we should just go along to get along. It's amazing how short sighted this is. I suppose when somebody says turn in your guns by jan. 1, you will be the first in line. Wake up before you have no rights left. History is meant to be learned from it you are wise. Unbelievable how people think nowadays. Have a great day!

[Catskinner]

Yeah, it's a funny thing about this sort of police agency vagueness. Here in Canada we've got Canada Border Services Agency which present a related sort of 'law making on the fly' example. Not exactly police, they're not even allowed to have guns so far as I know. Or maybe that changed recently? Anyway, they're glorified security guards. And yet if they feel a whim, they go with it, and we as citizens can fill out all the forms we like and protest to Ottawa and we may, some day, get a hearing, but most likely it'll be a rubber stamp sort of thing. CBSA wins almost every argument. Most famously around my part of the country was the case of a book shop called 'Little Sisters' - LGBT sort of folks running it. Never went there myself, but I knew people who found it a very friendly book shop. They had all manner of crates of books seized without warrant nor explanation over the years. Cost them a lot of money. Why? Because some border guards felt that the material was indecent. They didn't have to prove it, just had to say it and it was a done deal. One especially bizarre example was a couple of cases of a new recipe book for families, focused on kid's recipes, stuff that's easy and fun to make. The problem? Two moms wrote it, two women who happened to be lesbians and their picture was on the cover. Fully clothed. Not kissing or anything. With their kids. There was no offensive content other than that fact. Wow, Christian moralizing much?

Little Sisters eventually won a court case against CBSA. Took something like 20 years and hundreds of thousands in legal fees, and it was more or less a hollow victory, but symbolic anyway. Of course CBSA continues to operate in much the same way, because they're basically unsupervised, and 'because terrorism.' Much like your own ATF and practically everybody's airport services agencies have used 9/11 as an excuse to do whatever the hell they want to do. Stealing iPads for instance. By the thousands apparently. And groping women and kids, taking and sharing naughty pictures, generally stomping all over people's civil rights and not giving a damn.

But what can an individual do besides vote and write some letters? Heck, even writing letters on some of the more controversial topics can get you on a watch list or worse. I would LOVE it if suppressors were not only legal but encouraged in my country. They are not. I have a friend who got caught with one he'd just finished machining at work, a snoopy fellow machinist with a bug up his nose reported him to management and he lost his job, lost his firearms license for 3 years, lost thousands of dollars worth of weapons. He was lucky. Could have been a 5 year ban, and he's applied for and is going to get back his sub-500fps airguns. Not the .50" long range gun though, not all the other nice toys. We're not sure if he's getting his valuable glass back yet... some nice Leupold stuff, top end. Sucks to like quiet shooting here. But cry about it to the RCMP or a politician? No thanks, I don't want to be raided nor have my communications monitored.

Some people say the Bundy ranch situation was a good start of fighting back. And it stopped the over reach cold in its tracks. Fight em in the courts, or fight em in the streets. It's obvious there is a level of discontent that this country hasn't seem in a good long while. People are waking up, and things are changing in some places. Big government is a dying breed I feel. When overnight a law abiding citizen becomes a felon because of some arbitrary law, there is something wrong with that to a lot of people in this country.

[RPM509]

...You can't be arrested over stuff that's not illegal...

Bullshirt!

You absolutely can. You MAY eventually (2 days, weeks, months...) get out. You might not even have a conviction on your record. BUT, you will be poorer, and pissed off, and lots of other things. And you will, absolutely, forever after have an arrest record.

Your dream world hasn't existed since very shortly after the formation of our Republic, and likely won't exist again until AFTER the next civil war.

This horse is dead, stop beating him. Please.

Just by you saying that shows how out of control this place is. You can be snatched off the street and thrown in jail for nothing. And you guys think we should just go along to get along. It's amazing how short sighted this is. I suppose when somebody says turn in your guns by jan. 1, you will be the first in line. Wake up before you have no rights left. History is meant to be learned from it you are wise. Unbelievable how people think nowadays. Have a great day!

I don't think anyone in here thinks this or would sheepishly go along with what you're saying here. The point is, this forum isn't about activism, or learning how to skirt the law. Take what these people have to offer as far as advice or not, you're a free man, take it or leave it.

Some of these vary experienced people have offered you and us information, what you do with it is 100% up to you.

This post has reached an end for me.

[Kanook]

One more light bulb idea, put the remaining parts in the tube/can, mark the can, roll a groove into can (kinda like the grooves on soup cans) so that the baffles only go to said groove. The can will only have a dent/impression added to it.

Hoped I explained it right. If this bulb doesn't work, I'm getting a Christmas tree light strand next.

[Bendersquint]

One more light bulb idea, put the remaining parts in the tube/can, mark the can, roll a groove into can (kinda like the grooves on soup cans) so that the baffles only go to said groove. The can will only have a dent/impression added to it.

Hoped I explained it right. If this bulb doesn't work, I'm getting a Christmas tree light strand next.

The titanium tubing is REALLY thin, I don't see that happening without damaging the can to get the desired effect.

[doubloon]

...
edit to add: IS A LETTER LEGALLY BINDING? WHO MAKES THE LAWS?
...

Regulations have the force of law though they are not "laws" in and of themselves.

Regulations may be set and changed by the appointed regulatory agency without an act of legislature. In the case of suppressors/silencers and more that regulatory agency is the BATFE.

Interpretations and clarifications of regulations may sometimes be communicated with open or private letters.

This thread has occasionally been entertaining and intermittently informative but the only thing for me that now remains to be answered is whether or not your ignorance is a choice or a disability.

[Catskinner]

...
edit to add: IS A LETTER LEGALLY BINDING? WHO MAKES THE LAWS?
...

Regulations have the force of law though they are not "laws" in and of themselves.

Regulations may be set and changed by the appointed regulatory agency without an act of legislature. In the case of suppressors/silencers and more that regulatory agency is the BATFE.

Interpretations and clarifications of regulations may sometimes be communicated with open or private letters.

This thread has occasionally been entertaining and intermittently informative but the only thing for me that now remains to be answered is whether or not your ignorance is a choice or a disability.

I've read a lot of your previous posts on other topics, and I have to wonder about your ignorance and disability myself. Because a different viewpoint must make one ignorant in your eyes. Regulations on paper still have to stand in a court when challenged. Just look at the damn SIG case about what a silencer is. So I'll say again, your jailhouse lawyer skills are only misleading people and worth what people have paid you on this forum. And that is not a god damn thing. So you can belittle people that try to fight and see change, or you can parrot tired talking points, but you just show how stubborn and ignorant you truly are.

[mpallett]

Discussion = GOOD

Heated discussion = OK

Name calling = BAD


My question is this, "How can you lose parts in an indoor range?"

"Someone" is in illegal possession of silencer parts or they are long gone swept up in the trash, or someone grabbed it while picking up their brass not knowing what it was.

When SWR was developing the Spectre, I blew up several prototypes, launching the guts down range, out side. I found the parts. I will say that I did not blow it up with 22lr.

What do the threads look like? Is the tube split? I just find it hard to believe that a 22 wold do that.

I will say, that legal or not, if they are coming for you you are going to lose. You might win in the end, but you will lose.

[doubloon]

... Regulations on paper still have to stand in a court when challenged. ...

I didn't say regulations could not be challenged in court. I said they carry the force of law.

Laws on paper also have to stand in court when challenged.

Even unconstitutional laws get passed. It doesn't make them any less enforceable than a good law until challenged and overturned in court.

There are many people actively fighting to make changes to the treatment of NFA but they first actually understand what it is they're fighting.

You're not fighting to see a change, all you're doing is smearing a reputable manufacturer, telling industry professionals they don't know what they're talking about, looking for loopholes in laws and regulations and telling people they don't have to follow laws or regulations that don't make sense.

Do I believe the NFA laws and regulations are arbitrary and unconstitutional? Yes.

Do I support the organizations lobbying and fighting to change and/or abolish the arbitrary and unconstitutional laws and regulations? Yes.

If you stepped in front of that bus and went toe to toe with the ATF in court would I contribute to the crowdfund to pay your lawyers? Yes.

[mpallett]

If you stepped in front of that bus and went toe to toe with the ATF in court would I contribute to the crowdfund to pay your lawyers? Yes.

And that is how we are here.

[Catskinner]

... Regulations on paper still have to stand in a court when challenged. ...

I didn't say regulations could not be challenged in court. I said they carry the force of law.

Laws on paper also have to stand in court when challenged.

Even unconstitutional laws get passed. It doesn't make them any less enforceable than a good law until challenged and overturned in court.

There are many people actively fighting to make changes to the treatment of NFA but they first actually understand what it is they're fighting.

You're not fighting to see a change, all you're doing is smearing a reputable manufacturer, telling industry professionals they don't know what they're talking about, looking for loopholes in laws and regulations and telling people they don't have to follow laws or regulations that don't make sense.

Do I believe the NFA laws and regulations are arbitrary and unconstitutional? Yes.

Do I support the organizations lobbying and fighting to change and/or abolish the arbitrary and unconstitutional laws and regulations? Yes.

If you stepped in front of that bus and went toe to toe with the ATF in court would I contribute to the crowdfund to pay your lawyers? Yes.

I'm not sure how I smeared anyone by saying it was great they are taking care of the issue, and that kind of service moved them up in my store bought can search. I may have asked uncomfortable questions. But when a rep of the company comes along and posts public comments, they do open up certain avenues, that should be explored, and questioned. And if that's smearing, well we just have a different view on things. On the legal points, it seems the first thing people say is its illegal first. Instead of trying to find the legal ways to work around the writing of the law or reg. Like the New York State compliant ar15 that came out earlier. If you have a reasonable explanation and use logic, you can overcome a lot. It seems any ideas are met with, no that's illegal as a starting point. I'm trying daily to advance gun/NFA issues in my work, even if it's just talking to people that have a different view and explaining silencers. And I'm looking into upgrading my ffl on July 1 to sell cans possibly if interest holds up. When they hear the laws, most of them say how ridiculous it is once they are informed. So it helps to question everything. And it seems that people just fall in line with the its illegal view. We all have the same goals, but it becomes a smash mouth gang bang with all the jailhouse lawyers calling out the felon express etc. Sometimes I wonder if certain people around here don't like the confusing rules and want to keep silencers NFA. Sorry if I hurt anyone, but I must not be doing a good job portraying my points, since I'm just defending myself. But I always appreciate the insight and debate, and try to learn from it. Thank you

[srs]

Catskinner,

I have found some flaws in your logic:
1. You are looking for rational thought and logic in a set of laws created by scared, stupid law makers.
2. You are expecting those people charged with applying those laws to do so in a rational manner. Their leaders are generally political appointees or lifelong bureaucrats.
3. You forget that many of the people in charge of the regulations that apply these laws HATE and fear guns and gun owners.
4. It appears to me that you think bad, stupid, and/or unconstitutional laws and regulations can be ignored with impunity.

Following this path will only lead to frustration or worse.

[Catskinner]

Catskinner,

I have found some flaws in your logic:
1. You are looking for rational thought and logic in a set of laws created by scared, stupid law makers.
2. You are expecting those people charged with applying those laws to do so in a rational manner. Their leaders are generally political appointees or lifelong bureaucrats.
3. You forget that many of the people in charge of the regulations that apply these laws HATE and fear guns and gun owners.
4. It appears to me that you think bad, stupid, and/or unconstitutional laws and regulations can be ignored with impunity.

Following this path will only lead to frustration or worse.

Well reading comprehension I see is not what you are good at. Yeah I said ignore laws with impunity. You just stick to doing what you are told, because you don't have the brains to think for yourself anyway. You amaze me with your ignorance.