What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

General silencer discussion. If you want to talk about a specific silenced rifle or pistol, it is best to do that in the rifle or pistol section for that brand.

All NFA laws apply.

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Fiddler
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What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by Fiddler » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:44 pm

Does anyone know how many Dbs less sound constitutes a suppressor in the ATF's rules?

you put on a recoil compensator (I know they make it louder) but let's say they didn't and as a side effect lowers the sound levels by 10 db, would that fall under the suppressor laws?

Thanks.

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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by DarkPhoenix » Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:48 pm


Fiddler
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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by Fiddler » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:01 pm

That's the problem. It says a device made to muffle sound from a firearm. If the device wasn't made to do so but did a little bit as a side effect.

and it is not designed like a sound muffler for firearms, then what?

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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by a_canadian » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:28 pm

I'd assume the worst, being that the ATF does not believe you as the maker or the owner of such a device, believing instead that there is an attempt to mislead them regarding the intent of the design. Assume that and proceed with caution. If you get busted in possession of a device which they state is designed for sound reduction of a firearm, you're stuck trying to prove otherwise. Good luck with that. Your professed innocence ('Gee Mr. ATF Agent, I didn't mean to make my gun quieter with this nifty device I screwed onto the muzzle, it just seems to have gotten a bit quieter unintentionally!') isn't going to get you very far.

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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by Fiddler » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:37 pm

a_canadian wrote:I'd assume the worst, being that the ATF does not believe you as the maker or the owner of such a device, believing instead that there is an attempt to mislead them regarding the intent of the design. Assume that and proceed with caution. If you get busted in possession of a device which they state is designed for sound reduction of a firearm, you're stuck trying to prove otherwise. Good luck with that. Your professed innocence ('Gee Mr. ATF Agent, I didn't mean to make my gun quieter with this nifty device I screwed onto the muzzle, it just seems to have gotten a bit quieter unintentionally!') isn't going to get you very far.

Lol. Yeah I figure that. I was hoping that there was an expert here who knew the nitty gritty details regarding silencer laws and knew that if you don't go below say 10dbs then it doesn't matter. Good silencers designed for muffling sound is around 30 dbs, which is quiet, relatively speaking.

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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by a_canadian » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:00 pm

Well I'm not expert on US law, but here in Canada even a slight reduction in volume using any muzzle device is considered a federal crime. 1dB is enough to get you into trouble.

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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by 700PSS » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:38 pm

a_canadian wrote:Well I'm not expert on US law, but here in Canada even a slight reduction in volume using any muzzle device is considered a federal crime. 1dB is enough to get you into trouble.
^^^THIS is the way it is.

After hearing the audio of the shooting in Canadian Parliament yesterday, I think they might consider using silencers. That had to be deafening.

Also, my support goes out to our neighbors to the north. Many good people there. Tragic that two servicemen have been lost over a couple of days there.

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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by doubloon » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:52 pm

700PSS wrote:
a_canadian wrote:Well I'm not expert on US law, but here in Canada even a slight reduction in volume using any muzzle device is considered a federal crime. 1dB is enough to get you into trouble.
^^^THIS is the way it is.
...
I would not restrict the U.S. definition to a "reduction" in volume.
Fiddler wrote:That's the problem. It says a device made to muffle ...
Not exactly what it says. I'm not a lawyer so just an opinion. If you really want an actual expert in the nitty gritty details of the law you should pony up some cash and hire an attorney.

"The term “Firearm Silencer” or “Firearm Muffler” means any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm"

The first part of the definition says "any device for". Not "made for" or "designed for". I agree this still implies an intended purpose but it doesn't restrict the base definition of a silencer to something that was "made" or "designed" to be a silencer. It's effectively includes anything that is used to silence, muffle or diminish the report of a firearm.

But your real question is how many dBs does it take to make a silencer? 1? 2? 3? I'm not sure even Mr. Owl can answer that question.

The definition of "silence" is the absence of sound or noise. Hardly achievable with today's technology outside of Hollywood but just in case you can completely get rid of all the sound from a gun shot we got you covered.

The definition of "muffle" is to "make quieter" or to "deaden the sound". Making a firearm report quieter seems like a tall order but deadening the sound seems to be getting closer to what we think of as modern day silencers. Perhaps making the report quieter is how we get into the splitting of hairs that leads to every captive piston round becoming a silencer in and of itself regardless of what attachments are added to the muzzle.

And just in case "muffle" wasn't fuzzy enough logic for you we have to throw in "diminish", the cherry on the sundae that is the NFA definition of a silencer. Because diminish doesn't just mean to "make less" it also means "cause to appear" less. WTF? The hell you say? Appear less? Whazzat mean? It could easily mean shifting the pitch of a firearm report outside the range of human hearing. Still the same amount of noise just not noise you can hear. In this case even a device that adds noise and increases the dB level of a report would be a "silencer" as long as the noise was outside the range of human hearing.

So, how many dB you ask? The way things are written it's any measurable amount of dB the ATF thinks is worth raising a stink over.

As far as the "designed" part of your question goes you should follow the Sig lawsuit if you're interested. it's all about design and intent which are harder to measure than dB.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014 ... ification/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895

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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by curtistactical » Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:22 pm

Any device that lowers the sound of a muzzle blast is a silencer, that being said I have always wondered how Noveske got the flaming pig approved for manufacture because it has one baffle in it and it does lower the sound especially on an sbr. I would play it safe and not do anything that reduces sound at all but if it didn't lower any more than the flaming pig you would have an argument if the need arose.
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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:07 pm

curtistactical wrote:Any device that lowers the sound of a muzzle blast is a silencer, that being said I have always wondered how Noveske got the flaming pig approved for manufacture because it has one baffle in it and it does lower the sound especially on an sbr. I would play it safe and not do anything that reduces sound at all but if it didn't lower any more than the flaming pig you would have an argument if the need arose.
Challenged and defeated. ATF tested the pig and according to their testing methods did not reduce the sound of the report.

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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by Fiddler » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:23 pm

Thanks guys.

I can make my recoil compensator as loud as the original report so it won't make a difference now that Sig's case has shown that if the original amount of sound comes out then that's all that matters. Unlike Sig's case, it is not possible (I can't see how anyways) to turn my recoil comp into a silencer.

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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by curtistactical » Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:40 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
curtistactical wrote:Any device that lowers the sound of a muzzle blast is a silencer, that being said I have always wondered how Noveske got the flaming pig approved for manufacture because it has one baffle in it and it does lower the sound especially on an sbr. I would play it safe and not do anything that reduces sound at all but if it didn't lower any more than the flaming pig you would have an argument if the need arose.
Challenged and defeated. ATF tested the pig and according to their testing methods did not reduce the sound of the report.
If you are using a 22 conversion in an AR it knocks almost 10db off of it.
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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by Bendersquint » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:38 am

curtistactical wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
curtistactical wrote:Any device that lowers the sound of a muzzle blast is a silencer, that being said I have always wondered how Noveske got the flaming pig approved for manufacture because it has one baffle in it and it does lower the sound especially on an sbr. I would play it safe and not do anything that reduces sound at all but if it didn't lower any more than the flaming pig you would have an argument if the need arose.
Challenged and defeated. ATF tested the pig and according to their testing methods did not reduce the sound of the report.
If you are using a 22 conversion in an AR it knocks almost 10db off of it.
But you are using it for a purpose it was not designed for. I am sure they didn't test it for 9mm either.....

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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by doubloon » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:06 am

It's Chore Boy logic all over again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by Historian » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:06 am

Please add my condolences to and admiration for our Canadian Brothers.

Bravo to Mr. Vickers for his quick thinking in terminating a 6th century
throw back who wanted to harm unarmed innocents. John Wayne is still alive
to our North.

Since Red NY Mayor DeBlasio has banned the brave officers of the NYPD from
frisking suspicious folks as that would be racial profiling, an idea arose for a cartoon
I would have drawn long ago for college's humor magazine:

DeBlasio covering the eyes of NY Cops in Wall Street who are pointing to a bearded man, wearing a dirty turban
covered in fried bacon [ had to add this ], with a large canvas bag whose outline suggests a a large weapon, and
the front of his robe is tented out in anticipatory orgiastic expulsion as he is scanning
the crowd.

Zero DeB; "Racial Profiling No, Gun Control Yes" :) :)

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Re: What sound suppresion level constitue a silencer?

Post by wacki » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:36 pm

a_canadian wrote:I'd assume the worst, being that the ATF does not believe you as the maker or the owner of such a device, believing instead that there is an attempt to mislead them regarding the intent of the design. Assume that and proceed with caution. If you get busted in possession of a device which they state is designed for sound reduction of a firearm, you're stuck trying to prove otherwise. Good luck with that. Your professed innocence ('Gee Mr. ATF Agent, I didn't mean to make my gun quieter with this nifty device I screwed onto the muzzle, it just seems to have gotten a bit quieter unintentionally!') isn't going to get you very far.
It's still an ill defined slippery slope. Especially with pig breaks that make sound quieter for the shooter but louder for those down range.

In some lawyers eyes that would be a suppressor.

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