Legality of form 1 SD Tactical solvent trap suppressor

[Mr. Whisper]

I'm 17 and am planning on building a form 1 suppressor when I turn 18. Since I cannot buy the cans that I really want from a dealer until I'm 21, and have limited access/kowledge of mills and lathes I was wondering if buying the encaps and tube online from SD or Preppersdiscount, with form 1 in hand, and building it would violate any laws. (Possession with intent, purchasing silencer parts etc) While this has been discussed here to some degree I still can't find a clear answer. Does anyone know?

[MJF1911]

You have to be 21 to file a Form 1.

[Mr. Whisper]

I have heard that you can use a trust, a form 1, or buy from an individual in the same state on a f4 and do it wile you are 18, I believe the law says that dealers cannot transfer any suppressors to anyone under 21, but since no dealer is transfering it the suppressor it was OK. (www.silencerco.comm/ownership/)

[tripntx]

I'm 17 and am planning on building a form 1 suppressor when I turn 18. Since I cannot buy the cans that I really want from a dealer until I'm 21, and have limited access/kowledge of mills and lathes I was wondering if buying the encaps and tube online from SD or Preppersdiscount, with form 1 in hand, and building it would violate any laws. (Possession with intent, purchasing silencer parts etc) While this has been discussed here to some degree I still can't find a clear answer. Does anyone know?

Sorry OP, I can't answer your question, but I'm very pleased to see your generation joining the ranks of firearms enthusiasts. Please continue in your effort to "keep it legal", and encourage your friends to do the same.

[Mr. Whisper]

I appreciate the support

[srs]

You will need to check with a lawyer in your state, but I believe that if you are a trustee in a properly set up trust, you should be able to use a suppressor built by/for the trust once you are over 18. I'm uncertain on whether you would be allowed to make the suppressor.

I think that most states allow possession of a "firearm" at 18, and pistol at 21. Since the suppressor is not a pistol, but a firearm, you may be ok. My reading of the federal law doesn't indicate a problem to me.

Please check with a lawyer, as it would really suck to get a felony and no longer be able to vote.

-Steve

[Mr. Whisper]

OK, I will be sure to check with a lawyer about whether I can do a f1 at 18, buy i still want to know if there is a clear answer about if using a SD "solvent trap" for a form 1is legal, or if that is a grey area of the law that has no clear answer.

[srs]

"Intent" is hard to prove or disprove.

Option 1: You file a Form 1, then buy a solvent trap and assemble it as a suppressor, your intent is obvious; and you would NOT be legal. The fact that prosecution is exceedingly unlikely doesn't matter - you have violated ATF regulations on purchasing suppressor parts.

Option 2: You purchase a solvent trap and use is as such, your intent is equally obvious; and you would be legal.

If, after Option 2 you then file a Form 1 and convert your solvent trap to a suppressor, you should be on pretty good legal ground. Your original intent was to purchase a solvent trap - not suppressor parts (legal), you got the approved Form 1 (legal), you made a suppressor from existing material (legal).

The ATF has been exceedingly clear on the question of buying suppressor parts, you may NOT do it.

Again, get a lawyer on retainer and ask.

[MJF1911]

Read the instructions on the F1, you must be 21 to manufacture a firearm.

[doubloon]

Age issues aside.

"Intent" is hard
... and ask.

Not a lawyer and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn but this is the way I interpret things as well. A gray area that can be an expensive mistake if you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

I think of it similar to, but not exactly the same as, suppressor wipes which mere mortals have already been given "permission" to replace on their own.

I can't go out and buy pre-cut wipes for my Poseidon because that would be "buying suppressor parts". However, I can buy a big ass sheet of neoprene with the intent to cut them myself but I shouldn't cut 100 of them all at once for fear of the BATFE boogie man finding my extra "silencer parts" and giving me a nugie.

The "solvent trap" and all the accouterments which may be purchased along with it online is different to me because it gives one the ability to assemble a [probably crappy] suppressor without modification to the original parts. So, if you have handy and available all the parts to assemble an unregistered suppressor then you are swimming in a different kettle of fish. Especially if some of those parts smell like and taste like gunpowder residue.

[telero]

Read the instructions on the F1, you must be 21 to manufacture a firearm.

Not true. It doesn't say anywhere that you have to be 21 on the form, or in Federal law, to submit a form 1.

Question 10(d) asks if you are under 21. The form also asks for a separate sheet with an explanation for any yes answers in question 10 or 11. So you would mark 10(d) yes and submit a separate sheet explaining that you are at least 18 and provide proof that you actually are at least 18 (copy of driver's license for example).

There are a number of 18-20 year old people that have submitted a form one and been approved.

[HK Man]

"Intent" is hard to prove or disprove.

Option 1: You file a Form 1, then buy a solvent trap and assemble it as a suppressor, your intent is obvious; and you would NOT be legal. The fact that prosecution is exceedingly unlikely doesn't matter - you have violated ATF regulations on purchasing suppressor parts.

Option 2: You purchase a solvent trap and use is as such, your intent is equally obvious; and you would be legal.

If, after Option 2 you then file a Form 1 and convert your solvent trap to a suppressor, you should be on pretty good legal ground. Your original intent was to purchase a solvent trap - not suppressor parts (legal), you got the approved Form 1 (legal), you made a suppressor from existing material (legal).

The ATF has been exceedingly clear on the question of buying suppressor parts, you may NOT do it.

Again, get a lawyer on retainer and ask.

This has me scratching my head. I don't understand what the difference would be between buying a threaded tube and buying a plain tube and having it threaded. My intent in both instances would be to build a suppressor.

[Bendersquint]

You have to be 21 to file a Form 1.

Completely inaccurate.

You have to be 18 years old to MAKE an NFA weapon.

You have to be 18 years old to BUY an NFA weapon from a non-licensee.

You have to be 21 years old to BUY and NFA weapons from an FFL/SOT.

[Bendersquint]

This has me scratching my head. I don't understand what the difference would be between buying a threaded tube and buying a plain tube and having it threaded. My intent in both instances would be to build a suppressor.

Threaded tube is a silencer part.

Plain tube is a tube.

[HK Man]

This is why I don't get it. ATF Q&A website, about halfway down:


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearm ... ology.html

Q: Is it legal to assemble a firearm from commercially available parts kits that can be purchased via internet or shotgun news?


For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.

The GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3), defines the term : “firearm” to include the following:


… (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive: (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

In addition, the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b), defines the term “machinegun” as:


… any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

[Bendersquint]

This is why I don't get it. ATF Q&A website, about halfway down:


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearm ... ology.html

Q: Is it legal to assemble a firearm from commercially available parts kits that can be purchased via internet or shotgun news?


For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.

The GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3), defines the term : “firearm” to include the following:


… (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive: (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

In addition, the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b), defines the term “machinegun” as:


… any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

What don't you get?

[HK Man]

This is why I don't get it. ATF Q&A website, about halfway down:


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearm ... ology.html

Q: Is it legal to assemble a firearm from commercially available parts kits that can be purchased via internet or shotgun news?


For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.

The GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3), defines the term : “firearm” to include the following:


… (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive: (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

In addition, the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b), defines the term “machinegun” as:


… any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

What don't you get?

The way I read it is that I can assemble a silencer, defined as a firearm, from parts kits that can be purchased via internet or shotgun news.

[Bendersquint]

The way I read it is that I can assemble a silencer, defined as a firearm, from parts kits that can be purchased via internet or shotgun news.

Sadly you are reading it wrong, if you were reading it right there would be hundreds of dealeing selling silencer kits but the ATF has prohibited the sale of silencer parts.

A silencer is considered a firearm so they can regulate it, but you have to follow NFA rules when making NFA weapons.....

GCA sets top level guidance, the further you go down the food chain the more refined it gets.

Gotta follow NFA rules when dealing with NFA weapons.

[Mr. Whisper]

So what I know so far is that:

The SD solvent trap (threaded tube+ threaded end cap with NO BORE HOLE+ threaded adapter for gun muzzle) is 100% legal as a solvent trap (the ATF has said so)

The solvent trap DOES become a silencer/silencer part when baffles are added and/or a bore hole is drilled in the end cap.

What I DONT know is wheather or not it is legal to purchase a solvent trap and use it as such, and then later, with a form one, add baffles and a bore hole and convert a NON silencer part into a registered suppressor. Would it be any more/less legal if I were to thread a tube myself, and then buy the adapter and end cap from SD to use on the treaded tube.

[Bendersquint]

So what I know so far is that:

The SD solvent trap (threaded tube+ threaded end cap with NO BORE HOLE+ threaded adapter for gun muzzle) is 100% legal as a solvent trap (the ATF has said so)

The solvent trap DOES become a silencer/silencer part when baffles are added and/or a bore hole is drilled in the end cap.

What I DONT know is wheather or not it is legal to purchase a solvent trap and use it as such, and then later, with a form one, add baffles and a bore hole and convert a NON silencer part into a registered suppressor. Would it be any more/less legal if I were to thread a tube myself, and then buy the adapter and end cap from SD to use on the treaded tube.

I haven't seen the ATF say its legal....where is their documentation?

You can't buy a silencer part. This has been discussed more than any other topic on this board.

[srs]

So what I know so far is that:

The SD solvent trap (threaded tube+ threaded end cap with NO BORE HOLE+ threaded adapter for gun muzzle) is 100% legal as a solvent trap (the ATF has said so)

The solvent trap DOES become a silencer/silencer part when baffles are added and/or a bore hole is drilled in the end cap.

What I DONT know is wheather or not it is legal to purchase a solvent trap and use it as such, and then later, with a form one, add baffles and a bore hole and convert a NON silencer part into a registered suppressor. Would it be any more/less legal if I were to thread a tube myself, and then buy the adapter and end cap from SD to use on the treaded tube.

Since the threaded tube was purchased as part of the solvent trap, I don't see how threading the tube yourself would make it more or less legal. At least one member here has recently made a Form 1 suppressor using solvent trap parts, has published the fact here, and presumably is not in jail.

The only way to know for sure would be to write a letter to the ATF asking the question. I, and others, would recommend that you NOT do that as a first option as it tends to get new regulations written that create problems for otherwise law abiding folks.

Bendersquint takes a hard line on grey areas, and if you follow his advice you WILL be safe from any legal issues. Some of us think he sometimes defines things a bit more strictly than the ATF might, but we have no way of knowing for sure. I would not want to push too hard as the consequences can be very dire.

Since you have asked essentially the same question several times in this thread, I have to assume that you have not yet consulted a lawyer. You should do that FIRST. Print out this thread and have him read it. Then, if you are not clear on the answer, consider asking the ATF. Notice that I said "clear" and not "happy" with the answer. I'm not "happy" that the ATF exists at all - what part of "shall not be infringed" do they not understand?!? But I don't have the cubic money it would take to get the bad laws overturned.

-Steve

[Mr. Whisper]

I agree someone here once asked if he could replace steel wool in his can and the ATF said NO!!
And I will talk to a lawyer before i do anything with a solvent trap, I just wanted to see if anyone here had any experience with that kind of thing.

[Mr. Whisper]

So what I know so far is that:

The SD solvent trap (threaded tube+ threaded end cap with NO BORE HOLE+ threaded adapter for gun muzzle) is 100% legal as a solvent trap (the ATF has said so)

The solvent trap DOES become a silencer/silencer part when baffles are added and/or a bore hole is drilled in the end cap.

What I DONT know is wheather or not it is legal to purchase a solvent trap and use it as such, and then later, with a form one, add baffles and a bore hole and convert a NON silencer part into a registered suppressor. Would it be any more/less legal if I were to thread a tube myself, and then buy the adapter and end cap from SD to use on the treaded tube.

I haven't seen the ATF say its legal....where is their documentation?

You can't buy a silencer part. This has been discussed more than any other topic on this board.

I have not seen the ATF officially state that they are legal or illegal, but i have seen on nearly every forum discussing them they say they are legal until turned into a unregistered silencer. I think i remember the SD website having a video and in it they mentioned that it is legal and only becomes illegal once you add baffles or drill a hole in the end cap (he may have said that he sent a letter to that ATF and that is what they said I don't remember for sure).

I completely agree with you that purchasing silencer parts is illegal, but don't think a solvent trap is a silencer part as its primary purpose is to catch solvents pored down your gun barrel and it cannot silence anything in its present configuration, just like a threaded pipe at Home Depot technically could be made into a silencer although that is not its purpose, it is meant for plumbing and such,

[doubloon]

...
What I DONT know is wheather or not it is legal to purchase a solvent trap and use it as such, and then later, ...

This is the whole "intent" merry-go-round which never yields a 100%, absolute, protect your anal virginity answer that everyone can agree on.

Let's go as far into left field as I can get on this topic.

I have a sprinkler system at my house, bought it years ago. If I put in a pool I'm going to dig up a bunch spare sprinkler system parts sitting the ground and I think to myself "Self, you should file a Form 1 and make a suppressor with some of those parts.".

Did I F--k up? Will the though police now come and arrest me for intending to make a silencer out of parts I bought 20 years ago?

Or, will they stealthily wait for me to file the Form 1 then nab me in my jammies because I already own the parts I'm going to use to make my suppressor?

To the letter of the "intent" interpretation of things it looks like I'm definitely a criminal at some point between digging up my yard and making my suppressor ... F--k me for wanting a pool.

[Bendersquint]

I completely agree with you that purchasing silencer parts is illegal, but don't think a solvent trap is a silencer part as its primary purpose is to catch solvents pored down your gun barrel and it cannot silence anything in its present configuration, just like........

You are reaching big time on that one.

It most certainly can xuppress a round in its present configuration.

Load round, pull trigger, bet you a dollar it will work......nothing NEEDS to be done to prepare for it use as a silencer, just fire a round.

May not last as long without a predrill but predrill is NOT required, its ready to fire once you screw it on.