Chemistry Question: The "dip"

[Boosted98gsx]

So if I am dunking my sparrow (just the core and the clamshells) in peracetic acid to remove lead buildup, about how much lead will it eat (I know this is volume controlled) before the reaction dwindles?

If I were to put MgSO4 in the container with the can and the peracetic acid, would it harm the primary reaction at all? Or, maybe, would it help assist the primary reaction by auto-converting the lead-acetate into lead-sulfate, freeing up the acetic acid to perform more work?

I read that others are using table salt in the stead of Epsom salt. Is there any benefit to one vs the other?

Thanks

[Bendersquint]

So if I am dunking my sparrow (just the core and the clamshells) in peracetic acid to remove lead buildup, about how much lead will it eat (I know this is volume controlled) before the reaction dwindles?

If I were to put MgSO4 in the container with the can and the peracetic acid, would it harm the primary reaction at all? Or, maybe, would it help assist the primary reaction by auto-converting the lead-acetate into lead-sulfate, freeing up the acetic acid to perform more work?

I read that others are using table salt in the stead of Epsom salt. Is there any benefit to one vs the other?

Thanks

The dip is cheap enough to not reclaim.

If it isn't being effective create a new batch and dip it again.

[Boosted98gsx]

So if I am dunking my sparrow (just the core and the clamshells) in peracetic acid to remove lead buildup, about how much lead will it eat (I know this is volume controlled) before the reaction dwindles?

If I were to put MgSO4 in the container with the can and the peracetic acid, would it harm the primary reaction at all? Or, maybe, would it help assist the primary reaction by auto-converting the lead-acetate into lead-sulfate, freeing up the acetic acid to perform more work?

I read that others are using table salt in the stead of Epsom salt. Is there any benefit to one vs the other?

Thanks

The dip is cheap enough to not reclaim.

If it isn't being effective create a new batch and dip it again.

Yea, just the nearest disposal site for me is quite a drive. Trying to get the most I can out of it.

After I supersaturate the post dipping "dip" with epsom salt, is it ok to assume that all the lead acetate has been converted to lead sulfate?

[Bendersquint]

So if I am dunking my sparrow (just the core and the clamshells) in peracetic acid to remove lead buildup, about how much lead will it eat (I know this is volume controlled) before the reaction dwindles?

If I were to put MgSO4 in the container with the can and the peracetic acid, would it harm the primary reaction at all? Or, maybe, would it help assist the primary reaction by auto-converting the lead-acetate into lead-sulfate, freeing up the acetic acid to perform more work?

I read that others are using table salt in the stead of Epsom salt. Is there any benefit to one vs the other?

Thanks

The dip is cheap enough to not reclaim.

If it isn't being effective create a new batch and dip it again.

Yea, just the nearest disposal site for me is quite a drive. Trying to get the most I can out of it.

After I supersaturate the post dipping "dip" with epsom salt, is it ok to assume that all the lead acetate has been converted to lead sulfate?

There is no ASSUMPTIONS when it comes to HAZMAT.

If you don't have a means to dispose of HAZMAT materials you shouldn't be dealing with them.

[Boosted98gsx]

There is no ASSUMPTIONS when it comes to HAZMAT.

If you don't have a means to dispose of HAZMAT materials you shouldn't be dealing with them.

Eh, assumptions are used all the time in chemistry and physics.

[Bendersquint]

There is no ASSUMPTIONS when it comes to HAZMAT.

If you don't have a means to dispose of HAZMAT materials you shouldn't be dealing with them.

Eh, assumptions are used all the time in chemistry and physics.

Agreed, but generally those assumptions come from chemists and physicists......are you either?

[Boosted98gsx]

There is no ASSUMPTIONS when it comes to HAZMAT.

If you don't have a means to dispose of HAZMAT materials you shouldn't be dealing with them.

Eh, assumptions are used all the time in chemistry and physics.

Agreed, but generally those assumptions come from chemists and physicists......are you either?

Mechanical Engineer, so maybe kinda?

[Bendersquint]

Agreed, but generally those assumptions come from chemists and physicists......are you either?

Mechanical Engineer, so maybe kinda?

I would ask a chemist about this for a good answer.

I have a customer that is a chemist I will pose it to and see what his response is.

[Boosted98gsx]

Agreed, but generally those assumptions come from chemists and physicists......are you either?

Mechanical Engineer, so maybe kinda?

I would ask a chemist about this for a good answer.

I have a customer that is a chemist I will pose it to and see what his response is.

Awesome, thanks.

[doubloon]

There was a thread here once about precipitating the lead back out of the dip.

If you google "dip lead precipitate site:silencertalk.com" you may get a couple hits if those sub-forums aren't in Google exile.

[Historian]

Archie was a chemist
Archie is no more
Archie couldn't tell the differece
Between H20 and H2SO4

Beginning of lecture 1955 MIT Chemistry 5.01

While we are on the subject of drivel to lighten up a dreary day
from Institute's 'poet's corner', main building lavatory wall, same era:

Mechanical engineers have not fears
They never deal in trifles
They hang their balls upon the walls
And shoot them down with rifles



Lord, please spare us form 'global warming', the 17º outside is
to [ .... ] much to take.

[Hatchetjoe]

Lord, please spare us form 'global warming', the 17º outside is
to [ .... ] much to take.



Yeah you got that right, just had another dance with the Ariens

[Conqueror]

Been a long time since I took Organic, but most chemical reactions run to equilibrium, not necessarily completion IIRC. If so it would be safer to assume that some amount of lead acetate remains in solution even after precipitation with Epsom salt.

[Boosted98gsx]

Been a long time since I took Organic, but most chemical reactions run to equilibrium, not necessarily completion IIRC. If so it would be safer to assume that some amount of lead acetate remains in solution even after precipitation with Epsom salt.

Unless the potential energy of the reaction is enough that it carries through until one of the base components is used up.

[eastern_hunter]

Insoluble materials precipitate. By definition, if it is insoluble the reaction is driven strongly to the right leaving little of the starting material (acetate).


The greater challenge is to understand the conditions under which the precipitate might be handled. For example, there are supposed to be some bacteria in land fills that convert lead chloride into a soluble form such as the acetate leading to toxic contamination.


Lead metal forms an oxide layer that makes it generally impervious to being made into a soluble form. Thus I suspect the environmental concerns are perhaps overly touted by many environmentalists.


Of course this is only my opinion, and while based in a good education and advanced degree is without the benefit of active research in the area.

[Bugzy]

eastern_hunter,

I was in Charleston, WVa. when the Union Carbine plant had their unofficially acknowledged "MIK" (Methyl isocyanate) leak. The same stuff that killed 2000 at another of their plants the previous year in Bhopal, India: http://www.nytimes.com/1985/08/12/us/to ... ginia.html

Notice that the plant was sold the following year: http://www.dow.com/ucc/locations/westvir/awv/inf02.htm

Since then...when I have baffles or monocores with lead buildup, I just just spit on them...and the lead will vaporize into a harmless cloud of water vapor.

In the Kanawha Valley area, there was always an obnoxious odor. That place stinks!

[eastern_hunter]

Charleston was pretty rough in the late 70s and early 80s. The environmental situation in the Kanawha Valley improved rather dramatically in the later 80s and into the 90s. By the time Union Carbide was acquired by Dow in 2001 there really was not a time in the spring when the air became noticeably smelly. Much like Pittsburgh the area recovered nicely.

The valley was once a major manufacturing area. One of the largest forges in the world was located at Charleston Ordnance where they made the 16" barrels for the Naval rifles used on Iowa Class battleships. FMC, Monsanto, Corning, and Dupont also had significant facilities in the area. AEP still has major power generation facilities in the area.

Even though industry was reclaiming the environment, the demise of manufacturing, the chemical and the coal industry has taken a real toll on the local economy.

We are becoming a major medical and governmental center but neither supports the number of jobs that were once here ... but life changes.

[Boosted98gsx]

Monsato....

[Fulmen]

Now I'll admit that I don't know too much about this solution, but adding a sulphate would probably be a bad idea. The whole point is to dissolve lead by first oxidizing it to lead oxide, this will in turn be dissolved by the acetic acid. Sulphates are used on spent solution to convert the soluble lead acetate into insoluble (and thus much less harmful) lead sulphate.
Adding a sulphate to the "working solution" would most likely inhibit the reaction by producing a coating of insoluble sulphates, the exact opposite of what you're after.

As for precipitating the lead with table salt it's not the best solution. Lead chloride is moderately soluble (10g/l) while the sulphate is virtually insoluble (~0,05g/l).

[Deathray]

After I supersaturate the post dipping "dip" with epsom salt, is it ok to assume that all the lead acetate has been converted to lead sulfate?

It is not.

While the equilibrium of that reaction will be helped by the lead sulfate precipitating out of solution, you won't get all of it. Most? Sure, but not all.

<--Chemist.

[Fulmen]

You seldom get 100% from any reaction, question is what is good enough. The solubility of lead sulphate is 0,05g/l, so virtually everything will precipitate out. But I wouldn't drink the remaining liquid, and if you tossed the precipitate in the back yard it will leach lead for a long time.
Lead carbonate is even less soluble (0,001g/l) but is soluble in acids.