Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

General silencer discussion. If you want to talk about a specific silenced rifle or pistol, it is best to do that in the rifle or pistol section for that brand.

All NFA laws apply.

Moderators: mpallett, mr fixit, bakerjw, renegade

Post Reply
Thepsychizn
New Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:26 pm

Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by Thepsychizn »

I've been trying for more than six months to purchase my first silencer. Being new to this, I need information about the process from those who have experience in this area. Here's the scenario. I paid (in advance, in full) for a silencer for my Rem 700 rifle. Was told at the time of order that it would take 2-3 months for delivery of silencer. After almost 7 months of waiting and hearing a variety of explanations for the delay (back orders/limits on number the dealer could receive from his distributor, etc.), I received a call telling me that my silencer was at the store where I made the purchase. Upon arrival, the dealer showed me the silencer and proceeded to fill out the Form 4 to be sent to the BATFE. This past Friday I paid the $200 fee to accompany the filing, he gave me a copy of the Form 4, and I was told that it might be six months before the application would be processed and approved by the ATF. Upon reviewing the Form 4 that I signed (and for which I provided a copy of the Trust document my attorney had created), I noticed that the copy of the form given to me by the dealer does not have a Serial Number on Line 4g for the silencer. It is my understanding that a properly completed form must be submitted to BATF with the SN for the silencer that will be transferred to me. I was under the impression that the reason I waited nearly seven months was so that the SN could be included with the form submitted to the BATF. Bottom line, in view of the more than six months for the 'dealer' to notify me that he had received delivery of my silencer, I am now concerned that he might be misleading me about the proper submission of the Form 4 ... and if it has even been submitted at all. Any comments or other information about this procedure would be greatly appreciated. I hate to confront the dealer with my suspicions without being informed, but I worry that I'm being taken advantage of ... due in part to my advanced years. Thanks in advance.
User avatar
continuity
Elite Member
Posts: 4554
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:39 am
Location: Ohio

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by continuity »

The transfer form for the subject suppressor should have the suppressor's serial number on it.
What amount of a man is composed of his own collection of experiences... and the conclusions that those experiences have allowed him to "know" for certain as "Truth"? :Ick
dullh
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:16 pm

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by dullh »

Your dealer is either not keeping up on NFA wait times or he is blowin 'smoke...

If you DO NOT have a SERIAL NUMBER in the box on the Form 4 it will be returned to your dealer (not you) for correction.

If anything else on that form is missing or incorrect - it will be kicked back to your dealer (not you) for correction.

It most certainly should NOT have taken six months for your dealer to get that silencer in hand once you paid for it. Form 3 transfer wait times right now are running 4-6 WEEKS, not months.

Once a properly filled out Form 4 with a Trust is submitted it takes about 4 weeks for the ATF to put it in the system.

Once in the system, your Form 4 goes PENDING; my last Trust Form 4 to be approved (last week in fact) went from PENDING TO APPROVED in EXACTLY 90 days.

Worst case total time - payment to possession (6 weeks to get it in to dealer on Form 3, 4 weeks for Form 4 to go received to pending at ATF, 12 weeks for review and approval) = 20 weeks (~5 months).

So you're 6 months in and your dealer is just NOW getting your silencer? Something's wrong...
Last edited by dullh on Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:47 pm, edited 6 times in total.
66427vette
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1873
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:14 pm

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by 66427vette »

Thepsychizn
New Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:26 pm

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by Thepsychizn »

continuity, dullth: Thank you for your responses and help with this matter. A couple of additional questions... I plan to visit the dealer today and make a request for the Serial Number of my silencer for which he has (supposedly) submitted the Form 4 to BATF. At this point in the process, is the purchaser entitled to have a COMPLETE copy of the Form 4 which shows the serial number of the silencer that he is purchasing through the dealer? I don't want to request/demand a copy of something if I'm not legally entitled to it. Also, is there any method by which the end user (customer) can track the progress towards BATF approval ... after they have received the Form 4 submission from the dealer?

I remain very concerned about this 'dealer's' intentions, particularly after I was provided a copy of the Form 4 but no serial number shown for the silencer I'm buying....

This has been such a long, drawn-out effort, rather expensive, and I remain sort of in the dark on this whole transaction. There seems to be no clear-cut path for those of us who aren't knowledgeable of the process.
rimshaker
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:15 am
Location: FL

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by rimshaker »

For all intents and purposes, the silencer is YOURS since it's been paid in full. You can even shoot it already if your dealer also has a range.

You're entitled to any paperwork with YOUR silencer. Maybe the dealer just gave you an early F4 copy that wasn't complete yet.

Go there in person and physically inspect your can. Verify that the serial# on the tube matches exactly with the submitted F4 copy (including dashes or spaces).

You can also ask for a copy of the Form 3 to keep for your records. F3 is for dealer/distributor/manufacturer transfers, and that's what you waited on for 7 months. Again, verify the serial# matches exactly between the silencer, F4 and F3.
sillycon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:34 pm
Location: FL

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by sillycon »

While I agree with dullh and believe his time estimate to be generally on point, though it is not unheard of for a stack of forms to get lost behind a desk/filing cabinet/etc. only to be found months and/or years later.

Hell, I've got two SOT's I know who have an couple items still "pending" after submitting paperwork 10+ months ago; meanwhile they've had a bakers dozen other transfers go through in the more expected 3-5 month time frame.

The NFA process can be quite the test of ones patience.

Where are you located? Also, if I may ask, what dealer are you using?
66427vette
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1873
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:14 pm

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by 66427vette »

rimshaker wrote:For all intents and purposes, the silencer is YOURS since it's been paid in full. You can even shoot it already if your dealer also has a range.

You're entitled to any paperwork with YOUR silencer. Maybe the dealer just gave you an early F4 copy that wasn't complete yet.

Go there in person and physically inspect your can. Verify that the serial# on the tube matches exactly with the submitted F4 copy (including dashes or spaces).

You can also ask for a copy of the Form 3 to keep for your records. F3 is for dealer/distributor/manufacturer transfers, and that's what you waited on for 7 months. Again, verify the serial# matches exactly between the silencer, F4 and F3.


The item belongs to dealer until the4473 is filled out. Up until that point it is the dealers he could even cancel the transfer after the approval . Seen lot of people get taken for a ride from shady dealers . Best of luck.
savage54
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:35 am

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by savage54 »

dullh wrote:Once a properly filled out Form 4 with a Trust is submitted it takes about 4 weeks for the ATF to put it in the system.

Once in the system, your Form 4 goes PENDING; my last Trust Form 4 to be approved (last week in fact) went from PENDING TO APPROVED in EXACTLY 90 days.

Is there some way to find out when a Form 4 reaches any of these statuses? Something online, rather than calling the NFA branch? I'd rather not take up their time with phone calls, so that they could get the forms processed more quickly, but I'd also like to be able to see what status mine is in, and how long it's been there.
User avatar
continuity
Elite Member
Posts: 4554
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:39 am
Location: Ohio

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by continuity »

The dealer holds "title" to the can until the Form 4 is approved, but you do have legal interest in it. If the transfer paperwork has been submitted, the dealer should have the can in his physical possession.

I have a suppressor in the transfer process that, for whatever reason, took 11 months to make it to my SOT.
What amount of a man is composed of his own collection of experiences... and the conclusions that those experiences have allowed him to "know" for certain as "Truth"? :Ick
User avatar
Abiqua
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1430
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:59 pm
Location: Oregon Territory

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by Abiqua »

savage54 wrote:
dullh wrote:Once a properly filled out Form 4 with a Trust is submitted it takes about 4 weeks for the ATF to put it in the system.

Once in the system, your Form 4 goes PENDING; my last Trust Form 4 to be approved (last week in fact) went from PENDING TO APPROVED in EXACTLY 90 days.

Is there some way to find out when a Form 4 reaches any of these statuses? Something online, rather than calling the NFA branch? I'd rather not take up their time with phone calls, so that they could get the forms processed more quickly, but I'd also like to be able to see what status mine is in, and how long it's been there.
You have to call. The people that answer the phones are not examiners, they are not being pulled away from processing forms.
Thepsychizn
New Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:26 pm

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by Thepsychizn »

Where are you located? Also, if I may ask, what dealer are you using?[/quote]


I am a Georgia resident, near Savannah. Prefer not to identify the dealer at this time. I don't know for certain, at this point, if he has done anything improper in this particular transaction. Based on the past seven months of waiting for the arrival of the item, I don't have any confidence that I'll have possession of it six months from now. My doubts are based on the absence of a serial number on the F4 'copy' that he handed me last Friday.
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by Bendersquint »

rimshaker wrote:For all intents and purposes, the silencer is YOURS since it's been paid in full. You can even shoot it already if your dealer also has a range.

You're entitled to any paperwork with YOUR silencer. Maybe the dealer just gave you an early F4 copy that wasn't complete yet.

Go there in person and physically inspect your can. Verify that the serial# on the tube matches exactly with the submitted F4 copy (including dashes or spaces).

You can also ask for a copy of the Form 3 to keep for your records. F3 is for dealer/distributor/manufacturer transfers, and that's what you waited on for 7 months. Again, verify the serial# matches exactly between the silencer, F4 and F3.
You have a FINANCIAL interest in that silencer and nothing more, until the 4473 is completed and handed over THEN and ONLY THEN does the silencer become legally yours. Until then it is the legal property of the SOT doing the transfer and can be cancelled by the SOT even with an approved Form4 in hand.

I have heard of more than my fair share of SOT's cancelling items and simply giving a refund of the money you put up for the item.
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by Bendersquint »

Thepsychizn wrote:Where are you located? Also, if I may ask, what dealer are you using?

I am a Georgia resident, near Savannah. Prefer not to identify the dealer at this time. I don't know for certain, at this point, if he has done anything improper in this particular transaction. Based on the past seven months of waiting for the arrival of the item, I don't have any confidence that I'll have possession of it six months from now. My doubts are based on the absence of a serial number on the F4 'copy' that he handed me last Friday.[/quote]


You really shouldn't be worrying about offending the SOT, I would confront the dealer ASAP for clarification.
Thepsychizn
New Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:26 pm

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by Thepsychizn »

You really shouldn't be worrying about offending the SOT, I would confront the dealer ASAP for clarification.[/quote]


I am doing that today, armed with information provided by several folks on this board.

Thanks to all.
sillycon
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:34 pm
Location: FL

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by sillycon »

Part of the reason I asked was because most any established dealer is going to have a recognized reputation. You may have chosen a dealer that is "known" to be problematic and routinely shafts their customers, or that is "known" to occasionally goof paperwork but you'll still get the product you paid for when it's all settled, etc.
rimshaker
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:15 am
Location: FL

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by rimshaker »

Bendersquint wrote:
rimshaker wrote:For all intents and purposes, the silencer is YOURS since it's been paid in full. You can even shoot it already if your dealer also has a range.

You're entitled to any paperwork with YOUR silencer. Maybe the dealer just gave you an early F4 copy that wasn't complete yet.

Go there in person and physically inspect your can. Verify that the serial# on the tube matches exactly with the submitted F4 copy (including dashes or spaces).

You can also ask for a copy of the Form 3 to keep for your records. F3 is for dealer/distributor/manufacturer transfers, and that's what you waited on for 7 months. Again, verify the serial# matches exactly between the silencer, F4 and F3.
You have a FINANCIAL interest in that silencer and nothing more, until the 4473 is completed and handed over THEN and ONLY THEN does the silencer become legally yours. Until then it is the legal property of the SOT doing the transfer and can be cancelled by the SOT even with an approved Form4 in hand.

I have heard of more than my fair share of SOT's cancelling items and simply giving a refund of the money you put up for the item.
I guess everyone still has a wide interpretation of what "yours" means. Otherwise, why do some get to actually shoot "their" silencers all they want on the dealer premises during the 3-9 month wait period?
66427vette
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1873
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:14 pm

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by 66427vette »

Shooting it while waiting is a courtesy . Facts are facts sot owns items until4473's are filed out.
User avatar
continuity
Elite Member
Posts: 4554
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:39 am
Location: Ohio

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by continuity »

Bendersquint wrote:... Until then it is the legal property of the SOT doing the transfer and can be cancelled by the SOT even with an approved Form4 in hand...
I have a hard time understanding how a NFA item transfer could be cancelled by a SOT if a Form 4 has been approved with a stamp affixed to it.

The transfer is legally completed, and the transfrees name is in the register as the owner.
What amount of a man is composed of his own collection of experiences... and the conclusions that those experiences have allowed him to "know" for certain as "Truth"? :Ick
66427vette
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1873
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:14 pm

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by 66427vette »

Transfer is not completed until 4473 is filled out and logged out of bound book. Pretty simple.
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by Bendersquint »

continuity wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:... Until then it is the legal property of the SOT doing the transfer and can be cancelled by the SOT even with an approved Form4 in hand...
I have a hard time understanding how a NFA item transfer could be cancelled by a SOT if a Form 4 has been approved with a stamp affixed to it.

The transfer is legally completed, and the transfrees name is in the register as the owner.
The Form4 is only the permission slip for the SOT to conduct the transfer of ownership via 4473.

Until it has been signed over via 4473 and out of the bound book the SOT is still the legal owner.
User avatar
continuity
Elite Member
Posts: 4554
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:39 am
Location: Ohio

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by continuity »

You guys are closer to that end of things than I am. Will make it a mental sticky note.
What amount of a man is composed of his own collection of experiences... and the conclusions that those experiences have allowed him to "know" for certain as "Truth"? :Ick
User avatar
Prince Yamato
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:55 am

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by Prince Yamato »

I absolutely HATE dealers that treat NFA items like they are imbued with some sort of magic. The process for obtaining them is straightforward. Most likely, your dealer has a distributor that he orders from and the distributor had the cans on backorder. That's what took so long with the Form 3. Your dealer is also an incompetent idiot who messed up the Form 4. Honestly, this shouldn't even happen, because he should be doing the form ONCE as a PDF and then printing it out in triplicate (2 for ATF. one for you). There should be no difference between the forms.

As far as wait time... 6 months for my Form 4s has been standard EVERY...SINGLE...DAMN...TIME. Regardless of the year or political climate, it has always taken me 6 months. Form 3s should not take that long. Even during 2013, my Form 3 only took a month and a half.

The good news is that errors only delay the approval by 2-3 weeks tops. Provided your dealer sends the corrections in quickly, of course.
User avatar
Bendersquint
Industry Professional
Posts: 11357
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Silencer Purchasing Process (concerns)

Post by Bendersquint »

Prince Yamato wrote: As far as wait time... 6 months for my Form 4s has been standard EVERY...SINGLE...DAMN...TIME. Regardless of the year or political climate, it has always taken me 6 months. Form 3s should not take that long. Even during 2013, my Form 3 only took a month and a half.
My Form4's have been anywhere from 6-14 months. Only in the last 3 years have I seen it common from 6-8 months for a Form4.
Post Reply