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Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:08 pm
by blkcloud
Do any of you do this to register your can? About all I read about is the trust and the llc... whats the pros cons of just getting him to sign your form? thanks!
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:08 pm
by Conqueror
Well, for starters, many people do not live in a place where the sheriff will sign. For those people, a trust or corporation is the only option.
If your sheriff will sign forms, really the only "pro" is that you can avoid the paperwork and cost of setting up a trust or corporation. But the list of "pros" to having a trust or corporation is much more extensive: not having to go get fingerprinted, not having to pay for passport photos, ability to add your spouse or children as trustees or corporate employees to allow them to possess the weapons without you, etc. The only real "cons" to a trust/corp are: initial setup, and uncertainty about the ATF 41p ruling.
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:12 pm
by Fulliautomatix
Well... if your Sheriff is willing to sign, then go for it. It will still be a little more legwork on your part because in addition to the Sheriff's signature, you'll need to get passport photos and fingerprints for your individual Form 1/4 application.
Going with a trust you can spend anywhere from $50-$150 for an attorney/law firm to draft one. You don't have to supply photos, fingerprints or get anyone to sign off to approve your Form 1/4.
You will likely need to get a notary signature on your trust though.
Trust Form 4's appear to be being process a bit faster than individual Form 4's too, for what its worth.
http://www.nfatracker.com/TrendGraph.aspx
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:01 am
by Kanook
My wife hunts just as much as I do. Sometimes I get to our hunting property (in a different state) a week or two before her. I will take all firearms and gear, she hops on a plane. If I get stopped with a can registered to her, I could be delayed. I put the cans in a Trust so I will never have to worry about it.
The other big bonus for using a lawyer Trust vs internet Trust, I have the info for a firearms lawyer on my phone that knows me.
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:51 am
by rimshaker
There are no pros to going the CLEO signature route. Just by going to the sheriff's office you've already exposed your personal hobby and cool toys.
A Trust in and of itself has all the advantages over the Individual application. So I don't consider the cost and process of setting up a trust as a con.
And judging by the trend graph on nfatracker, Individual apps take longer than Trusts for stamp approvals.
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:33 am
by Dieseljay
blkcloud wrote:Do any of you do this to register your can? About all I read about is the trust and the llc... whats the pros cons of just getting him to sign your form? thanks!
Yeah I go to my chief of police for a signature. We chat, he signs the form we all get along just fine. The pros to this. I get to meet and chat with my local Leo's and get to know the people. I can get my prints done there. It doesn't hurt to know your local law enforcement offices. I don't have to worry about a trust set up or screw up on the creation.
I don't let others barrow my guns for common sense reasons of liability so why would I let them borrow my NFA items... Just curious on that one.
Ohh the forms take longer, well they use to But I'm in no rush so who care.
I won't ever have to care about trust rules changing.
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:50 pm
by Conqueror
Dieseljay wrote: I don't let others barrow my guns for common sense reasons of liability so why would I let them borrow my NFA items... Just curious on that one.
What liability? If you would let your wife use a 20" rifle without you present, you should let her use a 14" rifle without you present. There is no additional liability. We aren't talking about loaning them to your buddy from work (although if you wanted to, you can do it with a trust or corporation).
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:12 pm
by Mark.n.chip
My sheriff shoots with me so no issues here. He brings the ammo most of the time
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:24 pm
by Lateck
I have run all my cans through the local Sheriff.
My first took 2 weeks as they found something that was 35 years old and court records were not correct. Fixed and all the rest took less then a week. It also helped as the ATF had the same question.
I know the trust would not have had the same problem, but for me, it was nice to know my past is now correctly represented.
If you live in a place were the LEO is accessible, I say do it.
Lateck,
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 2:19 am
by David Hineline
Who is most likely to roll up and do a paper check on your while you are shooting. The local po po. When his bosses signature is on the form, it does not get simpler than that.
Explain to the local Barney what a trust is, why your name is not on the form, why just last month your brother got caught shooting carp in a pond with the same silencer etc. etc.
The trust route is not what the BATFE likes and it brings extra attn. to those who go that route.
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 3:26 pm
by Conqueror
Tens of thousands of people's experience is that the above is complete nonsense.
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 1:30 pm
by TEXMEX
rimshaker wrote:There are no pros to going the CLEO signature route. Just by going to the sheriff's office you've already exposed your personal hobby and cool toys.
A Trust in and of itself has all the advantages over the Individual application. So I don't consider the cost and process of setting up a trust as a con.
And judging by the trend graph on nfatracker, Individual apps take longer than Trusts for stamp approvals.
That's a pretty bold statement. A trust is not appropriate for everyone. I do a CLEO signoff because I want to, don't need nor want a trust. A trust does not accomplish anything for me.
Almost all my shooting buddies are either dead or have gone around the bend
*, a bit mentally irregular. Those few remaining have absolutely no interest in Title II items, same for my wife. No children, no close family members, I am the last man standing, so a trust offers nothing.
In Texas the probate system requires the executor of a will to have just one court hearing, file a list of assets and file a notice to creditors without any further court oversight. Pretty simple.
Don't be so presumptuous to think what is right for is right for everyone.
* Many psychiatric facilities were built with a bendy road leading to it. Often the first image that patients would have of the institution would be as they were going round the bend. It's the literal interpretation for someone who has 'gone round the bend' or in a mental health institution.
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 3:39 pm
by JeffWard
Fulliautomatix wrote:Well... if your Sheriff is willing to sign, then go for it. It will still be a little more legwork on your part because in addition to the Sheriff's signature, you'll need to get passport photos and fingerprints for your individual Form 1/4 application.
Going with a trust you can spend anywhere from $50-$150 for an attorney/law firm to draft one. You don't have to supply photos, fingerprints or get anyone to sign off to approve your Form 1/4.
You will likely need to get a notary signature on your trust though.
Trust Form 4's appear to be being process a bit faster than individual Form 4's too, for what its worth.
http://www.nfatracker.com/TrendGraph.aspx
And one trust will work for all of your NFA purchases. No need to go back over and over as your collection grows!
JW
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 9:06 pm
by hunter2
TEXMEX wrote:rimshaker wrote:There are no pros to going the CLEO signature route. Just by going to the sheriff's office you've already exposed your personal hobby and cool toys.
A Trust in and of itself has all the advantages over the Individual application. So I don't consider the cost and process of setting up a trust as a con.
And judging by the trend graph on nfatracker, Individual apps take longer than Trusts for stamp approvals.
That's a pretty bold statement. A trust is not appropriate for everyone. I do a CLEO signoff because I want to, don't need nor want a trust. A trust does not accomplish anything for me.
Almost all my shooting buddies are either dead or have gone around the bend
*, a bit mentally irregular. Those few remaining have absolutely no interest in Title II items, same for my wife. No children, no close family members, I am the last man standing, so a trust offers nothing.
Mine is a great guy and neighbor. It also lets me explain to the ill informed that they are legal and the benefits are many.
In Texas the probate system requires the executor of a will to have just one court hearing, file a list of assets and file a notice to creditors without any further court oversight. Pretty simple.
Don't be so presumptuous to think what is right for is right for everyone.
* Many psychiatric facilities were built with a bendy road leading to it. Often the first image that patients would have of the institution would be as they were going round the bend. It's the literal interpretation for someone who has 'gone round the bend' or in a mental health institution.
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:46 pm
by skyegod
I went with the trust route purely for estate management. When the inevitable happens to me, I have a few trustees that can more easily disperse the NFA items.
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:51 pm
by GUNHEEP
With the new obamanation law, you now need a CLEO signature for a NFA trust as well...so it doesn't matter anymore...there really isn't any advantage for a trust other than having your liabilities narrowed to only the trust and not your personal property...the trust gets sued...you do not..
In Ohio, our governor signed into law that CLEO's have to sign..we have had a lot of CLEO's not signing because they felt they could be held liable or felt that citizens should not own NFA weapons...only the police..
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:45 pm
by Loki_stormbringer
GUNHEEP wrote:With the new obamanation law, you now need a CLEO signature for a NFA trust as well...so it doesn't matter anymore...there really isn't any advantage for a trust
Source?
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:26 pm
by sillycon
He's referring to ATF rule 41P which is still pending and hasn't gone into effect, and also has congressional legislation to directly prohibit its enactment in HR 2578 (the "must pass" 2016 DOJ/NASA/DEA funding bill).
In other words, 41p is pretty much dead and a likely to be a "never was" at this point.
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:39 pm
by sundazes
For the area in which i live, the CLEO is the State Police near a major metropolitan area. Although we are a shall sign state, going the CLEO route adds significant more time and expense to the process. I have had the sign off take 5 months to get back. I also need to submit a separate set of electronic prints to them adding the extra costs and more time. You have to go to certified places to get the prints done. Local LEO in this area will not print either ink or electronic. So the CLEO process looks like this:
Buy suppressor
Get blue cards done ATF
Get photos done ATF
Get electronic prints done. CLEO
Drive form 4 and electronic print receipt to the HQ of the state place. They will not accept mail in. it has to done in person. Luckily I live within 20 mile of HQ.
Wait
Wait some more
Check mail box.
Surprise, big envelope in the mail with signed form 4. It has been as little as 8 days and as much as 5 months average was 3 months.
Drive signed form 4 to dealer, write check to BATFE and they send it off.
Trust process:
Buy can
Hand dealer the trust docs and BATFE check.
Wait for BATFE approval,
Thats why I got a trust.
Re: Getting the sheriff to sign?
Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:20 pm
by Faulkner
Dieseljay wrote:blkcloud wrote:
I don't let others barrow my guns for common sense reasons of liability so why would I let them borrow my NFA items... Just curious on that one.
I don't either, except for my two sons, who are listed on my trust.