Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

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Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by Flakbait » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:12 pm

What would be the lightest and shortest hearing safe silencer for a 11.5 inch SBR rifle in 5.56?

Obviously a traditional steel full size can with steel baffles will work such as the Silencerco Specwar 5.56, but what about the newer designs available, including short versions?

Are these shorter cans hearing safe for an SBR? I am not looking for maximum suppression of noise, just the smallest package that is completely hearing safe.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by Deathray » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:38 am

I am doubtful if a 5.56mm AR that short has ever been made completely hearing safe.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by MJF1911 » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:56 am

ARs aren't hearing safe with any can.
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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by Aaron » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:22 am

technically not "Hearing safe" as even a suppressed 22lr wouldn't be hearing safe for "sustained exposure" but I shoot my suppressed ar without hearing protection comfortably all the time. I'm talking a few mags here and there on semi-auto not mag dumps of full auto of course.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by Flakbait » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:08 pm

When you say ARs are not safe with any can.


Do you mean 11.5 inch barrel SBR ARs in 5.56 are not hearing safe with any can or do you mean all ARs in 5.56 such as 16, 18, and 20 inch barrel ones are not hearing safe?

In most testing videos I have see on YouTube, the sound is recorded near the muzzle of the gun and not at the shooter's ear.

The shooter is exposed to noise/gas emitted from the ejection port and charging handle opening in addition to that coming from the muzzle.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by Prince Yamato » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:46 pm

Here come the decibel queens...

Guys, he wants to know, what is the smallest EFFECTIVE can for a 5.56. Yeah, they're all going to be louder than Hollywood quiet. What won't blast his eardrums to bits on an SBR?

The Colt XM-15 Moderator would be at the bottom of the list. What's at the top, what's in the middle?

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by TROOPER » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:54 pm

Prince Yamato wrote:Here come the decibel queens...

Guys, he wants to know, what is the smallest EFFECTIVE can for a 5.56. Yeah, they're all going to be louder than Hollywood quiet. What won't blast his eardrums to bits on an SBR?

The Colt XM-15 Moderator would be at the bottom of the list. What's at the top, what's in the middle?
What's "effective"? All silencers are going to lower the decibel by some amount.

And no, I'm not nit-picking, but his question has no context. "Smallest, lightest, most effective" is a combination of three variables. If he'd asked what the shortest can is, that would have an answer. If he'd asked what the quietest is, that, too, would have an answer.

But which one is both shortest and quietest? It's a dumb question because it's based on the assumption that the quietest is also the shortest, or that the shortest is also the quietest.... when if we've learned anything about silencers -- and apparently "we" haven't -- it's that every can is a compromise. If any one silencer was the best at everything, there wouldn't be 20-30 silencers on the market for a given caliber.

I love that you're defending him, but pointing out how asinine his question is hardly qualifies as being a "decibel queen".

As if 2/23/5.56 ARs weren't lousy enough hosts, he goes and throws SBR on the table too.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by RJT » Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:46 pm

Get an Omega with a 5.56 end cap, and an ear plug for your right ear. Close as you're going to get.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by Flakbait » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:30 am

SBR ARs in 5.56 are both loud and have significant muzzle flash. I asked what Silencers on the current market produced a hearing safe level of suppression So I don't have to wear hearing protection while shooting them...somehow I end up being accused of being assinine for being ignorant. :(

There are dozens of old and new silencers on the market that could possible suppress a 5.56 AR, including long and short versions models made by a particular maker. I don't have the ability to tests to test all the different combinations...these are expensive, possibly lifetime purchases with significant delays in ownership.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by savagetactical » Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:09 am

This is what people mean by no AR or SBR AR is hearing safe. Every test I've seen done that takes a reading at the shooter's ear on an AR is above the hearing safe level. Even if they are hearing safe at the muzzle all lengths, weights, and manufacturers are above 140 decibel at the shooters ear when shooting 556. Sub-sonic 300 Blk is probably the only round that is hearing safe at the ear in an AR. Take your pick of 6-7" 30 cal suppressors.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by Prince Yamato » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:48 pm

Folks, this isn't an academic exercise. Assume all SBR 5.56 are loud. Then, going on that assumption, which small (k-sized) can is going to knock down the dB's but not make the rifle as long as an 20" AR.

You're going to be looking at AAC, silencerco, or Surefire cans. They make sub-5" cans for 5.56 guns. They're going to knock down the dB's significantly, but the gun will still be loud. Short barrel 5.56 is always loud. You'll probably want earplugs if you're going to shoot a lot in one range session. For home defense or a shot here or there, you'll be ok, but you'll still make that, "oh, that was loud" face after you fire it (same face you make to change pressure in ears when airplane cabin pressure changes).

Something like this:

http://www.silencershop.com/silencers/5 ... l?___SID=U

That's what you're looking at.

Decibel Queens...

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by TROOPER » Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:28 pm

He wanted 'hearing safe', with:
- An AR.
- chambering 2.23
- That's SBR'ed
- With a short can

It isn't 'decibel queen' to point out that this isn't going to happen.

It isn't like people are with-holding the answer because we're nit-picking his wording or picking on him because he's 'the-new-guy'. It's just not a feasible request at this time; and frankly, with that caliber, on that platform, SBR'ed, and with a smaller silencer, it will probably NEVER happen.

... but thanks for referring to us as "decibel queens". I love to be insulted on the internet by someone who is about to run roughshod over someone else's hearing. Because if what's-his-face with the impossible demand takes your suggestion and fires off a quick five shots at an indoor gun range with no hearing protection, that's most likely going to be permanent -- PERMANENT -- hearing damage.
Last edited by TROOPER on Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by Prince Yamato » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:56 pm

The thing is, "hearing safe" is not the same thing as "hearing pleasant." A jet engine is loud (~85 dB) and unpleasant to the ear, yet is still within the safe hearing threshold. The SBR suppressed, measured at the ear, depending on the can, will be experience the same phenomenon. Again, I wouldn't want to hang around jet engines all day without earpro. I also wouldn't want to shoot an SBR 5.56 suppressed all day without earpro. A couple shots here or there is like transitioning from the tarmac to the cabin. Loud, but not dangerously so.

You are correct, shooting indoors will be very loud. I was referring to outdoor shooting.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by Flakbait » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:31 am

In other words, you are stating there is no current SBR 556 rifle that can be effectively quieted to by any 9 inch current production can 5.56 or 30 cal version to a hearing safe level (140 db) to shoot outdoors without risking permanent hearing damage. Perhaps this may be true but I would like some evidence to see for myself. (Links)

There are numerous YouTube internet videos of folks testing various silencers by measuring them at the muzzle of 16 inch 5.56 rifles outdoors. Many of the people testing them are not wearing hearing protection.

I just watched a video of Mike Pappas of Dead Air silencers shooting various rifles outside without obvious hearing protection with his new Sandman line of suppressors including what appears to be a 16 inch AR in 5.56 shooting 62 grain ammo with a Sandman S (short version).

http://youtu.be/VJwtKVV5--I


Do you think he knows a thing or two about what is a safe hearing level? I don't think he is trying to mislead anyone to sell his new products.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by JeffWard » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:01 am

RJT wrote:Get an Omega with a 5.56 end cap, and an ear plug for your right ear. Close as you're going to get.
Without the "Harvester" brake, it will be under 12oz (direct thread), and about 6", of which 1/2" will be over the muzzle. The Omega will add only 5-5.5" to your gun.

The 30 Cal end-cap should be effective, but the 5.56 en-cap will ice the cake.

IN THEORY, as the Omega is just now hitting the streets after the ATF Jail-Time. I bought mine in February. Now it looks like it will be August when I get it.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by TROOPER » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:15 pm

Click here and read EVERY POST of this thread.



I love you guys.

Good luck with your search, hopefully you end up satisfied with your purchase, whatever it happens to be.

I am all done with this thread.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by hardcase » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:28 pm

Flakbait wrote:What would be the lightest and shortest hearing safe silencer for a 11.5 inch SBR rifle in 5.56?

Obviously a traditional steel full size can with steel baffles will work such as the Silencerco Specwar 5.56, but what about the newer designs available, including short versions?

Are these shorter cans hearing safe for an SBR? I am not looking for maximum suppression of noise, just the smallest package that is completely hearing safe.
No such animal exists.

When I was a lot younger, I never wore hearing protection. My deer rifle was a 25/06. My bird gun was a 12 ga pump. It was not unusual to shoot 75-12 ga shells a day either at clay pigeons or the real thing. I'm now past 60 and paying for my folly.

As a rough rule of thumb, if a noise produces ringing in your ears you have caused a bit of permanent damage that is cumulative over time.

From what I have read, just the noise from the bolt closing on an AR is in the 115 db range. Repeatedly, this is enough to cause hearing damage.In any case, hearing protection has its limits.

By CBSNEWSAPMarch 8, 2008, 12:16 AM
While damage can occur at 80 to 85 decibels - the noise level of a moving tank - the best protection cuts that by only 20 to 25 decibels. That is not enough to protect the ears against an explosion or a firefight, which can range upwards of 183 decibels, said Dr. Ben Balough, a Navy captain and chairman of otolaryngology at the Balboa Navy Medical Center in San Diego.


Use hearing protection, no matter what can you buy.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by JasonM » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:10 pm

Flakbait wrote:In other words, you are stating there is no current SBR 556 rifle that can be effectively quieted to by any 9 inch current production can 5.56 or 30 cal version to a hearing safe level (140 db) to shoot outdoors without risking permanent hearing damage.

Correct. The noise from the gas system/ejection combined with the bullet flight noise and any residual muzzle blast makes every 5.56 AR not hearing safe at the shooter's ear.

You can continue to argue, but you've already been told by multiple people the unfortunate truth.

Hearing damage is sneaky and is cumulative. 140dB is the OSHA limit for impulse noise safety. A suppressed AR with supersonic ammo will be above this at your right ear. Therefore, it will cause damage with each and every shot.

This is multiplied by shooting under/near cover or indoors. And it is minimized shooting in the outdoors.

Will one shot make you deaf? no. Will one magazine? no. Will a day's shooting? no... but the damage IS occurring and it is cumulative.

Also, your hearing can and will be damaged even if the dB level is below 140.

It doesn't need to physically hurt you to cause damage to your hearing.

On an AR, a can will control the muzzle blast, every other source of noise is left alone. So, for the best suppression (approaching "hearing safe"), you want a full-sized can in general. This is not an absolute rule though... using AAC for example, the MINI4 is actually QUIETER at the shooter's ear than the M4-2000 because it allows more gas to pass through he can. BUT, it is MUCH louder at the muzzle than the M4-200, so if you are near any reflective surface, the overall sound pressure ends up being higher... So, you can't just look at any single sound measurement to make a decision. Plus, those numbers you see are infludenced by the weather, the ammo, the particular gun, the testing equipment, etc.

So, why bother with a silencer at all?

Because 140dB is WAY WAY quieter than 165dB.

Don't use youtube as an example of anything.

Mike (and all of us in the industry) have shot lots of times without ear pro, that doesn't mean it's not bad for us.

If you want hearing safe, switch to 300BLK subsonic AR, or a bolt gun, or certain pistol-caliber carbines.
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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by JasonM » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:12 pm

TROOPER wrote:He wanted 'hearing safe', with:
- An AR.
- chambering 2.23
- That's SBR'ed
- With a short can

It isn't 'decibel queen' to point out that this is going to happen.

It isn't like people are with-holding the answer because we're nit-picking his wording or picking on him because he's 'the-new-guy'. It's just not a feasible request at this time; and frankly, with that caliber, on that platform, SBR'ed, and with a smaller silencer, it will probably NEVER happen.

... but thanks for referring to us as "decibel queens". I love to be insulted on the internet by someone who is about to run roughshod over someone else's hearing. Because if what's-his-face with the impossible demand takes your suggestion and fires off a quick five shots at an indoor gun range with no hearing protection, that's most likely going to be permanent -- PERMANENT -- hearing damage.
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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by Flakbait » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:02 pm

JasonM,

I appreciate your honest and thorough answer. Your comments also seem to suggest that silencer industry designers like Mike Pappas are being chavelier at best or irresponsible at worse for making YouTube videos demonstrating their silencer products with supersonic 5.56 AR rifles and not utilizing hearing protection.

Please watch Mike Pappas video again and draw your own conclusions. I don't wish to disparage anyone but he seems to have a good reputation for good designs at his former companies he worked in the past. I understand he wants to sell a new product at his new company. I do think he is held to a much higher standard than the average gun enthusiast dabbling in the hobby of suppressors for their favorite firearms.

I'm a internal medicine physician by vocation (not an Audiologist or otolaryngologist). When I give medical advice (free or paid) I am held to a high standard by the community to give honest information that does not cause harm to anyone unless I disclose to risks of a certain behavior. Perhaps I am being unrealistic to hold experts such as Mike Pappas to a similar high standard. It would be nice if he could participate in this discussion.

http://youtu.be/VJwtKVV5--I


By shooting without obvious hearing protection, he is suggesting that his new Sandman L and Sandman S is hearing safe with 62 grain 5.56 ammo in a 16 inch AR shooting outdoors.

I'm no sound expert and have no reasonable access to quality sound measuring equipment to form my own conclusions. Therefore, I have to draw information from a variety of sources: Internet forums, you Tube, etc to get the best information i can get so I can enjoy, hopefully, years of good hearing without ringing in my ears or expensive hear aids in the future.

Your comments are making me reconsider obtaining a SBR AR in 5.56 and obtaining a 300 Blackout SBR instead. Too bad, in haven't seen any reports of anyone achieving near 1 MOA accuracy with any particular subsonic combination of ammo and rifle with 300 blackout. Most reports I have seen published in various magazines and online reports are only 2 MOA at best.

The useful effective range of sunsonic 300 blackout is probably not much greater than 100 yards anyway, so I guess 2 MOA should suffice for plinking, hunting, and self defense.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by este » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:50 pm

Flakbait wrote:JasonM,
I appreciate your honest and thorough answer. Your comments also seem to suggest that silencer industry designers like Mike Pappas are being chavelier at best or irresponsible at worse for making YouTube videos demonstrating their silencer products with supersonic 5.56 AR rifles and not utilizing hearing protection.
Oh, here I thought silencers were for adults.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by savagetactical » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:03 pm

Flakbait wrote:JasonM,

I appreciate your honest and thorough answer. Your comments also seem to suggest that silencer industry designers like Mike Pappas are being chavelier at best or irresponsible at worse for making YouTube videos demonstrating their silencer products with supersonic 5.56 AR rifles and not utilizing hearing protection.

Please watch Mike Pappas video again and draw your own conclusions. I don't wish to disparage anyone but he seems to have a good reputation for good designs at his former companies he worked in the past. I understand he wants to sell a new product at his new company. I do think he is held to a much higher standard than the average gun enthusiast dabbling in the hobby of suppressors for their favorite firearms.

I'm a internal medicine physician by vocation (not an Audiologist or otolaryngologist). When I give medical advice (free or paid) I am held to a high standard by the community to give honest information that does not cause harm to anyone unless I disclose to risks of a certain behavior. Perhaps I am being unrealistic to hold experts such as Mike Pappas to a similar high standard. It would be nice if he could participate in this discussion.

http://youtu.be/VJwtKVV5--I


By shooting without obvious hearing protection, he is suggesting that his new Sandman L and Sandman S is hearing safe with 62 grain 5.56 ammo in a 16 inch AR shooting outdoors.

I'm no sound expert and have no reasonable access to quality sound measuring equipment to form my own conclusions. Therefore, I have to draw information from a variety of sources: Internet forums, you Tube, etc to get the best information i can get so I can enjoy, hopefully, years of good hearing without ringing in my ears or expensive hear aids in the future.

Your comments are making me reconsider obtaining a SBR AR in 5.56 and obtaining a 300 Blackout SBR instead. Too bad, in haven't seen any reports of anyone achieving near 1 MOA accuracy with any particular subsonic combination of ammo and rifle with 300 blackout. Most reports I have seen published in various magazines and online reports are only 2 MOA at best.

The useful effective range of sunsonic 300 blackout is probably not much greater than 100 yards anyway, so I guess 2 MOA should suffice for plinking, hunting, and self defense.
Look at any third party sound test with a reading taken at the ear. Every 556 regardless of the barrel length is above 140 db. Go to silencershop YouTube page, their videos from the previous year have been giving readings at the ear when they show the summary at the end of their test videos. Many of the cans they have test are excellent performers. Until some post results showing Sandman numbers consistently below 140 an the ear I wouldn't assume its safe to shoot without ear pro.

Please don't get hung up on not having an SBR that doesn't shoot 1 MOA. Few can shoot 2 MOA anyway. Besides it doesn't matter if a SBR shoots 1 or 2 MOA, as long it shoots within the mil spec 4 MOA it's fulfilling its purpose (unless your wanting to brag on the internet). SBRs are meant to shoot across the room; at that range you couldn't measure the difference between 1 and 4 MOA.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by srs » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:28 am

savagetactical wrote:<snip>
Please don't get hung up on not having an SBR that doesn't shoot 1 MOA. Few can shoot 2 MOA anyway. Besides it doesn't matter if a SBR shoots 1 or 2 MOA, as long it shoots within the mil spec 4 MOA it's fulfilling its purpose (unless your wanting to brag on the internet). SBRs are meant to shoot across the room; at that range you couldn't measure the difference between 1 and 4 MOA.
This!

My HD gun is now a suppressed 9" 300BLK SBR (2 Form 1's). From an accuracy standpoint, I was looking for minute of badguy, and beat that by a large margin. 50 meter shots are easy, good shots beyond 100 meters will likely require better optics than the red dot currently installed, 300 meter shots with this rifle and subsonic ammo are a pipe dream. I was not building a hunting rifle.

The action noise and gas blowback is still enough to be uncomfortable when fired indoors, but no ringing in my ears. From a noise standpoint, I want to be able to hear movement inside my house after the first shot, I beat that by a good margin too. As a secondary consideration, I will be able to hear the responding officers commands, minimizing the chances of "friendly fire" after defending my home. I will use at least ear plugs at the range.

After all of that, while I do own a 9" 5.56 upper - I probably won't ever use it again. Without a suppressor, that sucker overpowers ear plugs and muffs combined - even outside. I'll likely put a CMMG .22LR barrel kit in it at some point.

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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by JasonM » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:47 am

Flakbait wrote:...
Mike is not being dishonest, nor is any of the manufacturers or users that you've seen shoot without ear pro.

But, what everyone has told you here is true- 5.56 is not quiet suppressed and will cause damage with repeated exposure.
It gets a good bit worse with SBRs, and worse again with smaller cans.

if you want safe and quiet, you are 'stuck' with either a bolt gun or an AR with subsonic ammo - 300BLK or even 9mm, etc.

If you're quest is 1MOA and completely hearing safe in an SBR, you should build up a 300BLK, run a good 308 can.

And then, the vast majority of off-the-shelf ammo is nowhere close to 1MOA (despite what the internet says). Most 5.56 ammo is 3, 4, 5 MOA ammo. Even standard "match" ammo will struggle to sniff 1MOA. You should work into reloading and see what you can come up with. You'll have much better precision than most factory loadings and you'll be able to tweak the exact recipe for what your particular gun likes.
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Re: Shortest, lightest silencer for SBR in 5.56?

Post by Wicked » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:03 pm

Light, short, hearing safe suppressor = young, hot, not-a-whore girlfriend. :lol: Light, short and hearing safe can't all be used in the same sentence. Pick two.

Short and light for an SBR? The old OPS, Inc. M4-S. It was the lightest and shortest 556 can out there, only had 2 baffles. Oh, but it's not hearing safe, not by a mile. Even if you believe in such a unicorn. It was a great deal ($200) when it was available exclusively from ADCO. Ron Allen of Allen Engineering has taken over the production of OPS cans and it looks like that model is no longer in the current line up.

It still rocked your ears, but nothing like a naked braked 11.5" SBR. That makes ears bleed. With this attached, they only ring for two days. At best, 14-15dB reduction is all this pint sized can will do. Better than nothin' but not good enough. This little bugger was built for a very specific purpose, and it accomplished the design goals. Was it for everyone? No. Is it 'hearing safe'? NO. You'd be disappointed if you shot it. There are half a dozen valid reasons no manufacturer builds anything this size today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9K4fybhjMw Here I'm rockin' it on a 7" PDW in the shoot house at TDI. With plugs in ears.

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