I'm looking for first hand experience.
I'm in the market for an SBR in 9mm. It will be shot suppressed 99% of the time. Options I've considered include:
AR 9mm (glock or colt pattern magazine)
CZ EVO Scorpion
Sig MPX
I'd like it to be brick reliable. As quiet or quieter than my Glock 17 host with with same can.
100 years ago I was around a 9mm AR (Colt pattern). It ran well, but is seemed loud compared to the handgun with the same can. I'm told heavier buffers, custom bolts, and heavier springs are a major improvement.
The CZ intrigues me with its subgun heritage and magazine pricing. The bolt is super heavy, which I'm told will make it quieter, despite being blowback.
The Sig has a locking bolt, which should make it quieter.
That said, my DI AR45 is louder for the shooter suppressed than the same can on a 1911 for the shooter. And by louder, I mean I don't think it is hearing safe.
I'm open to other options as well, but I don't have a budget capable for a transferable MP5.
9mm SBR host help needed
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ohnomrbillk
- Senior Silent Operator
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- Location: NW Missouri
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Killerapplesauce
- Senior Silent Operator
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Re: 9mm SBR host help needed
I'm interested too in building a 9mm SBR was thinking of going the AR 9 route with a Quarter Circle Ten glock lower but. The Sig MPX looks very nice and use a piston gas system which should run cleaner and have less blow-back plus all the other options interchangeable barrel and caliber's, stocks ext... i think i mite need to start saving or get a new CC.
Re: 9mm SBR host help needed
I had the same debate and after watching a side by side review of the Scorpion and MPX on the Military Arms Channel, I went with the Scorpion. I SBRed it and suppressed it and it's one of my favorite hosts.
It is not the Death Rattle in the throat of Western civilization which is surprising: it is the fact that millions of Americans believe that the death rattle is a beautiful song!
Re: 9mm SBR host help needed
I know this isn't on your list, but Classic Firearms is selling UZI copies for about $600. Having fired a suppressed UZI I can tell you it's a hoot, and with a Gemtech MultiMount on a threaded short barrel all I could hear was the action functioning. I suggest it because the UZI barrel is super easy to change. You can actually do it with your bare hands with no tools whatsoever, so you can buy a short barrel and swap them out or cut down the one you have.
Re: 9mm SBR host help needed
I read or heard somewhere that the CZ Skorpion will begin to come threaded 1/2 x 28 -- which is a big plus for that platform. Previously it had a different thread pitch which required either an adapter, or an odd-ball thread pitch for your silencer. I think I also heard that it'll be available in FDE soon.
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Loki_stormbringer
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Re: 9mm SBR host help needed
TROOPER wrote:I read or heard somewhere that the CZ Skorpion will begin to come threaded 1/2 x 28 -- which is a big plus for that platform. Previously it had a different thread pitch which required either an adapter, or an odd-ball thread pitch for your silencer. I think I also heard that it'll be available in FDE soon.
2016 models now feature 1/2×28 threads hidden underneath the factory flash-hider,
From:
http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-e ... -pistol-2/
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ohnomrbillk
- Senior Silent Operator
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Re: 9mm SBR host help needed
my dealer has an MPX and a CZ scorpion in hand that are both already SBRed and ready for transfer.
I'm traveling with work, but I'm hoping to get there soon to handle.
I'll report back with my results.
Appreciate everyone's input
I'm traveling with work, but I'm hoping to get there soon to handle.
I'll report back with my results.
Appreciate everyone's input
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Rooskibar123
- New Member
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- Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:01 am
Re: 9mm SBR host help needed
MPX is much quieter than my QC10 SBR 9mm and there is less blowback. But I like both and wil, shoot them equally.
Waiting on F1 for the Sig and then I'll chop it down and put a dedicated can on it.
FWIW I couldn't get past the looks of the CZ so went with the Sig.
Waiting on F1 for the Sig and then I'll chop it down and put a dedicated can on it.
FWIW I couldn't get past the looks of the CZ so went with the Sig.
Re: 9mm SBR host help needed
I can't make an apples-to-apples comparison on the MPX to the CZ Skorpion, but I do have the MPX, and when I use Speer "Lawman" ammunition, I don't notice any blowback. And it is very, very quiet.
I do have a Beretta CX4 Storm, which is a blowback operated 9mm rifle, and while there may be some differences in between the Beretta and the CZ, at heart, they're very similar. Which means that in between each shot, a relatively heavy piece of metal is moving inside of your gun. This very much affects how quickly your shot-to-shot occurs. The mass of the MPX bolt is absolutely minimal, and it makes it very easy to quickly ping steel very, very, very easy.
I've speculated -- and won, I think -- that by cutting the barrel to 3 inches, and then using a larger blast-chamber, the blow-back on this gun is radically reduced since the ability to dump high pressure gas into that initial chamber is quick and easy. Remember, that high-pressure gas (relatively speaking) is going to follow the path of least resistance, which means that by giving it a low-pressure area earlier, I am enjoying a minimal amount of blow-back on the shooter. While at the same time, the dwell time is sufficient - given that it's a short-stroke - to cycle the action. I've had no FTEs or FTFs since cutting the barrel and shooting ~500 rounds, so I'm confident that this gamble paid off.
With my blowback CX4, blow-back and 'grit-in-the-face' were a way of life. It was something to tolerate in order to get a reliable 9mm. But my MPX is much faster to handle between shots, shorter, has reduced weight and recoil, and higher capacity.
... on the downside, it costs MUCH more than the Beretta or CZ. I suspect that cleaning the CZ is like cleaning the Beretta: quick and easy. I suspect that the CZ has the reliability of the Beretta as one approaches the very high round counts without cleaning... something I haven't experienced with the MPX, but I suspect that as all three firearms get dirty, that the MPX will begin to succumb to carbon-fouling unreliability first.
The Beretta has probably the least expensive magazines of the three since it utilized regular old 92FS mags.... which also limits its capacity (but makes it a fantastic SHTF weapon in conjunction with a 92). The CZ has extremely affordable mags considering that they're relatively platform specific. The MPX is a frustrating matter because its mags are ~$75 each.... but they're Lancer, and arguably the highest quality of mags anywhere for any platform.
I bought the CX4 Storm years and years ago, and it was a dear favorite in its niche as suppressed 9mm rifle. But its capacity, ability to be SBR'ed, blow-back are what ultimately drove me to the MPX. The CZ solves the issue of capacity and is a true SBR. Current reports say it suppresses very well... but I just don't see it. Not that I think people are lying or anything, but that they're really saying "It suppresses better than I expected it to", or "It suppresses well for a blowback", or even "I've never shot the MPX with quality ammo on a 3-inch barrel, so I cannot compare the CZ to the MPX but I believe the CZ suppresses well."
One of the most aggravating things in the silencer world is that 380s don't suppress well. It's frustrating for two reasons: first, because the 380, being a lower volume, lower pressure 9mm, could use a regular 9mm can and should be very quiet! .... but it isn't, because it's a blow back. Second, none of us can ever be James Bond in our imagination, because we have to use 9x19 like some kind of a damned barbarian. But it's that blow-back aspect that I'm specifically pointing at, and since the CZ shares that feature, I'm skeptical that the system will handle a wide range of 9mm loads reliably... yet still have a bolt-mass and spring combination which enables the system to open *just* enough to eject and feed with a minimal amount of stroke when suppressed. That's not reality. On a blowback, you either get reliability, or you get tight-springs-and-heavy-mass for best suppression.... you don't get both.
If I had to do it over again and I had somehow gone with the CZ over the Beretta, I probably would not have purchased an MPX. Not because the MPX isn't better -- which I firmly believe it is -- but because the gains to move from one platform to the other wouldn't have been great enough to cover the losses associated with reacquiring paraphernalia and selling the old gun and gear at a loss. That wasn't true of the Beretta-to-MPX move.
You can look at that previous paragraph from two different perspectives: you can choose to get the CZ and be satisfied at a much, much lower price point. OR, you can look at it as almost hitting greatness, but falling short at the last moment.... and then basically being stuck since the costs to bump up to the next tier are too high.
My advice? Save your pennies and get the MPX.
------ ETA ----------
That is the Beretta CX4 Storm. The design of the rifle means that if a person wanted to SBR it, that they could cut off 4 or 5 inches of barrel at most. That's not worth the hassle of an SBR, and that's what I mean by saying that it can't really be SBR'ed. Legally, of course, it can be done.... but there's no practical reason to do it.
I do have a Beretta CX4 Storm, which is a blowback operated 9mm rifle, and while there may be some differences in between the Beretta and the CZ, at heart, they're very similar. Which means that in between each shot, a relatively heavy piece of metal is moving inside of your gun. This very much affects how quickly your shot-to-shot occurs. The mass of the MPX bolt is absolutely minimal, and it makes it very easy to quickly ping steel very, very, very easy.
I've speculated -- and won, I think -- that by cutting the barrel to 3 inches, and then using a larger blast-chamber, the blow-back on this gun is radically reduced since the ability to dump high pressure gas into that initial chamber is quick and easy. Remember, that high-pressure gas (relatively speaking) is going to follow the path of least resistance, which means that by giving it a low-pressure area earlier, I am enjoying a minimal amount of blow-back on the shooter. While at the same time, the dwell time is sufficient - given that it's a short-stroke - to cycle the action. I've had no FTEs or FTFs since cutting the barrel and shooting ~500 rounds, so I'm confident that this gamble paid off.
With my blowback CX4, blow-back and 'grit-in-the-face' were a way of life. It was something to tolerate in order to get a reliable 9mm. But my MPX is much faster to handle between shots, shorter, has reduced weight and recoil, and higher capacity.
... on the downside, it costs MUCH more than the Beretta or CZ. I suspect that cleaning the CZ is like cleaning the Beretta: quick and easy. I suspect that the CZ has the reliability of the Beretta as one approaches the very high round counts without cleaning... something I haven't experienced with the MPX, but I suspect that as all three firearms get dirty, that the MPX will begin to succumb to carbon-fouling unreliability first.
The Beretta has probably the least expensive magazines of the three since it utilized regular old 92FS mags.... which also limits its capacity (but makes it a fantastic SHTF weapon in conjunction with a 92). The CZ has extremely affordable mags considering that they're relatively platform specific. The MPX is a frustrating matter because its mags are ~$75 each.... but they're Lancer, and arguably the highest quality of mags anywhere for any platform.
I bought the CX4 Storm years and years ago, and it was a dear favorite in its niche as suppressed 9mm rifle. But its capacity, ability to be SBR'ed, blow-back are what ultimately drove me to the MPX. The CZ solves the issue of capacity and is a true SBR. Current reports say it suppresses very well... but I just don't see it. Not that I think people are lying or anything, but that they're really saying "It suppresses better than I expected it to", or "It suppresses well for a blowback", or even "I've never shot the MPX with quality ammo on a 3-inch barrel, so I cannot compare the CZ to the MPX but I believe the CZ suppresses well."
One of the most aggravating things in the silencer world is that 380s don't suppress well. It's frustrating for two reasons: first, because the 380, being a lower volume, lower pressure 9mm, could use a regular 9mm can and should be very quiet! .... but it isn't, because it's a blow back. Second, none of us can ever be James Bond in our imagination, because we have to use 9x19 like some kind of a damned barbarian. But it's that blow-back aspect that I'm specifically pointing at, and since the CZ shares that feature, I'm skeptical that the system will handle a wide range of 9mm loads reliably... yet still have a bolt-mass and spring combination which enables the system to open *just* enough to eject and feed with a minimal amount of stroke when suppressed. That's not reality. On a blowback, you either get reliability, or you get tight-springs-and-heavy-mass for best suppression.... you don't get both.
If I had to do it over again and I had somehow gone with the CZ over the Beretta, I probably would not have purchased an MPX. Not because the MPX isn't better -- which I firmly believe it is -- but because the gains to move from one platform to the other wouldn't have been great enough to cover the losses associated with reacquiring paraphernalia and selling the old gun and gear at a loss. That wasn't true of the Beretta-to-MPX move.
You can look at that previous paragraph from two different perspectives: you can choose to get the CZ and be satisfied at a much, much lower price point. OR, you can look at it as almost hitting greatness, but falling short at the last moment.... and then basically being stuck since the costs to bump up to the next tier are too high.
My advice? Save your pennies and get the MPX.
------ ETA ----------
That is the Beretta CX4 Storm. The design of the rifle means that if a person wanted to SBR it, that they could cut off 4 or 5 inches of barrel at most. That's not worth the hassle of an SBR, and that's what I mean by saying that it can't really be SBR'ed. Legally, of course, it can be done.... but there's no practical reason to do it.