Interesting TTAG post about engraving

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O2HeN2
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Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by O2HeN2 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:07 pm

...of course if you ask three different examiners the same question, you'll get 17 answers...

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/0 ... m-1ed-sbr/

Excerpt:

"So, when do you need to engrave your Form 1’ed SBR? The answer: when you intend to sell it. Engraving requirements apply to firearms that are intended for sale in interstate commerce, so when you go to sell your gun you’re going to need to have it engraved."

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by silencer_kid » Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:09 pm

well, that statement is in context of "If you manufacture a NFA device from an existing firearm"

everything has at least one serial # on it.


that tidbit in that link comes from ATF-P-5320-8 section 6.2.1, nothing really new.


"All NFA firearms must be identified by a serial number and other specified markings95. If an existing
firearm is being used in the making of the NFA weapon, and that firearm is serialized, the existing serial
number should be used (unless it duplicates a serial number already used by the maker on Form 1) and
entered in Block 4(g). If the weapon is of new manufacture, the applicant must assign a unique serial
number and enter it in Block 4(g). For example, a unique serial number could be composed of at least 4
digits preceded by the initials of the maker. NOTE: alpha characters, e.g., a name, will not be accepted
as a serial number. If a name is to be used, there must be at least one numeric character in addition to
the alpha characters."

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by Tony M. » Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:49 pm

I once talked to an ATF guy, in person, who told me I could legally make new machine-guns as a private individual. "Just file a Form 4"

I didn't take his advice either.

Some of the commenters over there are as clueless as leghorn.

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by CanOfWhooppass » Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:27 pm

I've heard the same thing before, and I belive the employees of a local SOT FFL do not engrave their SBR from existing firearms.

Got two questions:
Do any of you not engrave?
What could be the ramifications for not engraving a legaly stamped SBR?
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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by silencer_kid » Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:56 am

CanOfWhooppass wrote: What could be the ramifications for not engraving a legaly stamped SBR?
not sure what you are asking. everything has to have at least one serial #.
making a NFA item from an existing non-NFA item, you dont need to put another serial on it as long as you dont transfer it.

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by CanOfWhooppass » Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:07 pm

silencer_kid wrote:
CanOfWhooppass wrote: What could be the ramifications for not engraving a legaly stamped SBR?
not sure what you are asking. everything has to have at least one serial #.
making a NFA item from an existing non-NFA item, you dont need to put another serial on it as long as you dont transfer it.
I'm worried about the police, range master or even an ATF who believes the trust name is mandatory. I once had an off duty cop at the range making threats because he was sure my Mechtech carbine was illegal. My concern here is the number of people I've run into that believe it is required.

I guess what I want to hear is that they can threaten to report me to the ATF, but that is where it would end.
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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by doubloon » Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:22 pm

CanOfWhooppass wrote:[...
I guess what I want to hear is that they can threaten to report me to the ATF, but that is where it would end.
This would depend on the individual with which your are confronted and your ability to mitigate their concerns over you committing transgressions against the overlords.

Even if you have every i dotted and t crossed there is nothing preventing your accuser from reporting you to the gestapo and they are obliged to investigate all complaints.

JMOYMMV ... I tend to go out of my way to provide as much proof/documentation as possible I am operating completely within the king's law because it costs me virtually nothing to produce information for them that they are not necessarily entitled to review and get the whole thing over in a couple minutes rather than be detained for several hours waiting for the gestapo agency to confirm tothe clueless agency I am A-OK to operate in their theater.

Spending several hours in a cruiser or on a bench next to some smelly toothless ward of the state assuring me the change he wants will not be spent on alcohol just so I can sneer in the face of the local LEO and say "I told you so." is not on my bucket list.
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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by CanOfWhooppass » Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:42 pm

doubloon wrote:
CanOfWhooppass wrote:[...
I guess what I want to hear is that they can threaten to report me to the ATF, but that is where it would end.
This would depend on the individual with which your are confronted and your ability to mitigate their concerns over you committing transgressions against the overlords.

Even if you have every i dotted and t crossed there is nothing preventing your accuser from reporting you to the gestapo and they are obliged to investigate all complaints.

JMOYMMV ... I tend to go out of my way to provide as much proof/documentation as possible I am operating completely within the king's law because it costs me virtually nothing to produce information for them that they are not necessarily entitled to review and get the whole thing over in a couple minutes rather than be detained for several hours waiting for the gestapo agency to confirm tothe clueless agency I am A-OK to operate in their theater.

Spending several hours in a cruiser or on a bench next to some smelly toothless ward of the state assuring me the change he wants will not be spent on alcohol just so I can sneer in the face of the local LEO and say "I told you so." is not on my bucket list.
Good feedback, so guess I go back to my first quesion.. Do other people choose to skip the trust name engraving, or is it just not worth the potential agrivation so they do it even if no plans to ever sell?

I have my first two SBR stamps awaiting approval and I am trying to decide if I should bother with adding the trust name. Would you?
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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by doubloon » Wed Feb 10, 2016 3:41 pm

I've never engraved anything.

I can't say I recall anyone not engraving their trust name on an SBR of their "manufacture".

IIRC the engraving is for the manufacturer information not the owner even though they are one in the same for 90%+ of all Form 1 SBRs.

Fake statistics generated to impress. Combine that with the fact you read it on the internet and that makes me THE authority on the topic. :mrgreen:
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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:07 pm

CanOfWhooppass wrote: I have my first two SBR stamps awaiting approval and I am trying to decide if I should bother with adding the trust name. Would you?

Considering that it is blatantly clear in the regulations and the NFA Handbook yes, you are required to engrave your information on your NFA firearm as you are the maker.

The Title1 markings are already there, you as the maker of the Title2 firearm have to put your information on it as well.

Read Chapter 6.2.1 of the NFA Handbook and then read Chapter 7.4 which 6.2.1 refers to. If it is not clear to you the requirement to engrave your makers marks then you are simply not wanting to understand or accept it.

Even after that if you STILL say that it is not required please copy paste the sections that you say do NOT require you to engrave your information on it and I will copy paste the sections that says you do.

This is a common topic on the boards that is simply answered by reading the rules/regulations/NFA Handbook.

I know that Doubloon knows the requirements as well.

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by doubloon » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:24 pm

I have quoted them a couple times even though I've never done it.

But the TTAG article is a mixed bag of information, there has already been one misdirection in this thread and me adding one more "fact" to the thread for people to argue with was more energy than I wanted to spend on it.

So, I decided to add some colorful allegory instead. :mrgreen:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:29 pm

doubloon wrote:I have quoted them a couple times even though I've never done it.

But the TTAG article is a mixed bag of information, there has already been one misdirection in this thread and me adding one more "fact" to the thread for people to argue with was more energy than I wanted to spend on it.

So, I decided to add some colorful allegory instead. :mrgreen:
TTAG is not a reliable source for information, ESPECIALLY legal information.

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by CanOfWhooppass » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:31 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
CanOfWhooppass wrote: I have my first two SBR stamps awaiting approval and I am trying to decide if I should bother with adding the trust name. Would you?

Considering that it is blatantly clear in the regulations and the NFA Handbook yes, you are required to engrave your information on your NFA firearm as you are the maker.

The Title1 markings are already there, you as the maker of the Title2 firearm have to put your information on it as well.

Read Chapter 6.2.1 of the NFA Handbook and then read Chapter 7.4 which 6.2.1 refers to. If it is not clear to you the requirement to engrave your makers marks then you are simply not wanting to understand or accept it.

Even after that if you STILL say that it is not required please copy paste the sections that you say do NOT require you to engrave your information on it and I will copy paste the sections that says you do.

This is a common topic on the boards that is simply answered by reading the rules/regulations/NFA Handbook.

I know that Doubloon knows the requirements as well.
Thank you, I will engrave.
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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by doubloon » Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:18 pm

Bendersquint wrote:...
TTAG is not a reliable source for information, ESPECIALLY legal information.
It is probably almost as reliable as CNN or Huff Post.
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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by silencer_kid » Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:30 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
Even after that if you STILL say that it is not required please copy paste the sections that you say do NOT require you to engrave your information on it and I will copy paste the sections that says you do.
i thought i quoted directly from BATF:
atf-p-5320-8 chap 6 sec 6.2.1

"All NFA firearms must be identified by a serial number and other specified markings95. If an existing
firearm is being used in the making of the NFA weapon, and that firearm is serialized, the existing serial
number should be used (unless it duplicates a serial number already used by the maker on Form 1) and
entered in Block 4(g). If the weapon is of new manufacture, the applicant must assign a unique serial
number and enter it in Block 4(g). For example, a unique serial number could be composed of at least 4
digits preceded by the initials of the maker. NOTE: alpha characters, e.g., a name, will not be accepted
as a serial number. If a name is to be used, there must be at least one numeric character in addition to
the alpha characters."

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:06 pm

silencer_kid wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
Even after that if you STILL say that it is not required please copy paste the sections that you say do NOT require you to engrave your information on it and I will copy paste the sections that says you do.
i thought i quoted directly from BATF:
atf-p-5320-8 chap 6 sec 6.2.1

"All NFA firearms must be identified by a serial number and other specified markings95. If an existing
firearm is being used in the making of the NFA weapon, and that firearm is serialized, the existing serial
number should be used (unless it duplicates a serial number already used by the maker on Form 1) and
entered in Block 4(g). If the weapon is of new manufacture, the applicant must assign a unique serial
number and enter it in Block 4(g). For example, a unique serial number could be composed of at least 4
digits preceded by the initials of the maker. NOTE: alpha characters, e.g., a name, will not be accepted
as a serial number. If a name is to be used, there must be at least one numeric character in addition to
the alpha characters."
What part are you contesting as no requirement for engraving?

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by silencer_kid » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:04 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
What part are you contesting as no requirement for engraving?
no additional markings needed until item does a transfer. perhaps that quote is just for the serial # itself, but other markings requirements still apply for NFA item if they do not currently exist.

such as
(1) The model, if such designation has been made;
(2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place
of business.122

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:14 pm

silencer_kid wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
What part are you contesting as no requirement for engraving?
no additional markings needed until item does a transfer.
Did you read the reference in your quote "95"?

§ 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm"

From the NFA handbook in the section AFTER you quoted....
"The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model, and identification of the maker must
be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon. 96

The marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements. "

BOLD is my emphasis.

Where does it say in the regulations that the marking requirements are exempt unless you sell it?

Even Doubloon can't argue the written documentation! ;)

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by silencer_kid » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:18 pm

the non-NFA item will already have all that info. rifle to SBR, what do you have to change? nothing.
as for transfer, i'll dig on that
Last edited by silencer_kid on Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:27 pm

silencer_kid wrote:right, but the serial # on the non-NFA can remain the same when it becomes NFA.
Have to reread what i posted but i am pretty sure I never said that the serial number could not remain the same.

My whole point is that it is required that the NFA item be engraved with model/city/state/makers full name/caliber and serial.

if the item already has the model/caliber and serial there is no need to duplicate the engraving but you as the maker are required to put your makers marks on the item...city/state/makers full name.

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by AlabamaPaul » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:38 pm

silencer_kid wrote:the non-NFA item will already have all that info. rifle to SBR, what do you have to change? nothing.
as for transfer, i'll dig on that
You made a new firearm and registered it, so it needs the markings of the maker.

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:41 pm

AlabamaPaul wrote:
silencer_kid wrote:the non-NFA item will already have all that info. rifle to SBR, what do you have to change? nothing.
as for transfer, i'll dig on that
You made a new firearm and registered it, so it needs the markings of the maker.
Exactly my point.

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by cyclone72 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:44 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
silencer_kid wrote:right, but the serial # on the non-NFA can remain the same when it becomes NFA.
Have to reread what i posted but i am pretty sure I never said that the serial number could not remain the same.

My whole point is that it is required that the NFA item be engraved with model/city/state/makers full name/caliber and serial.

if the item already has the model/caliber and serial there is no need to duplicate the engraving but you as the maker are required to put your makers marks on the item...city/state/makers full name.
So if it is on a trust you still put city ,state and the full trust name?

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:47 pm

cyclone72 wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
silencer_kid wrote:right, but the serial # on the non-NFA can remain the same when it becomes NFA.
Have to reread what i posted but i am pretty sure I never said that the serial number could not remain the same.

My whole point is that it is required that the NFA item be engraved with model/city/state/makers full name/caliber and serial.

if the item already has the model/caliber and serial there is no need to duplicate the engraving but you as the maker are required to put your makers marks on the item...city/state/makers full name.
So if it is on a trust you still put city ,state and the full trust name?
Yup, the full trust name(including THE if its in your Trust name) and your city(postal abbreviation is acceptable) and state.

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Re: Interesting TTAG post about engraving

Post by doubloon » Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:03 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
silencer_kid wrote:right, but the serial # on the non-NFA can remain the same when it becomes NFA.
Have to reread what i posted but i am pretty sure I never said that the serial number could not remain the same.
...
I don't think you need to re-read, this is why I chose the colorful allegory path.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
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