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getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:06 pm
by edteach
I have read several things on the net about you do need to you don't need to engrave your SBR lower. I called ATF and was told in no uncertain terms I have to engrave. So I was worried about letting my lower SBR receiver sit at a trophy shop for a few days but sucked it up and took it in. Was told it would be done no later than Wed. After noon. I went in at 1pm and he said it was not done like what the heck are you doing here. I asked why and he said I did not get around to it. I told him to give it back and I would go elsewhere. Left neg feed back on line. He knew I was worried about leaving it with him and promised three days. I called a another local shop and before I could get it out to ask he said you have to be standing there while I do it, I can not hang on to them over night without you there. I made an appointment to come by tonight. So what is the law on letting some one doing work for you on a SBR lower that is not licensed to hold if for a few days? Legal not legal?

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:37 pm
by silencer_kid
edteach wrote:I have read several things on the net about you do need to you don't need to engrave your SBR lower. I called ATF and was told in no uncertain terms I have to engrave. So I was worried about letting my lower SBR receiver sit at a trophy shop for a few days but sucked it up and took it in. Was told it would be done no later than Wed. After noon. I went in at 1pm and he said it was not done like what the heck are you doing here. I asked why and he said I did not get around to it. I told him to give it back and I would go elsewhere. Left neg feed back on line. He knew I was worried about leaving it with him and promised three days. I called a another local shop and before I could get it out to ask he said you have to be standing there while I do it, I can not hang on to them over night without you there. I made an appointment to come by tonight. So what is the law on letting some one doing work for you on a SBR lower that is not licensed to hold if for a few days? Legal not legal?
engraved how? you mean missing the NFA requirements? i'll say its not legal to leave it there and that you would have to be there the whole time to have "control" over the item.

the scenario i ask about is, if i bring my own safe and its bolted to their floor, and only a wrecking ball can take it, and only i can get into the safe, can i leave my item in the safe as only i have control to get at the item. not that anyone would do this, just saying.

i think it would clearer if BATF used real English in their silly laws, the use of "possession" would clear up much of their confusing verbiage.


what about this one. your sbr is in name of trust, you then add machinist name to trust, now he can keep it w/o you there, when done you remove him from the trust ;)

and did i miss it, form-1 does or does not have a time limit to finish the manufacturing of the item? do the batf rules state that it must be 100% manufactured before placing into service?

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:57 pm
by Bendersquint
edteach wrote:I have read several things on the net about you do need to you don't need to engrave your SBR lower. I called ATF and was told in no uncertain terms I have to engrave. So I was worried about letting my lower SBR receiver sit at a trophy shop for a few days but sucked it up and took it in. Was told it would be done no later than Wed. After noon. I went in at 1pm and he said it was not done like what the heck are you doing here. I asked why and he said I did not get around to it. I told him to give it back and I would go elsewhere. Left neg feed back on line. He knew I was worried about leaving it with him and promised three days. I called a another local shop and before I could get it out to ask he said you have to be standing there while I do it, I can not hang on to them over night without you there. I made an appointment to come by tonight. So what is the law on letting some one doing work for you on a SBR lower that is not licensed to hold if for a few days? Legal not legal?
It is illegal to leave a firearm at a shop that does not have an FFL. It is considered a transfer, and also throws the shop into the wind and can get them charged as acting like a gunsmith without a license.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:04 pm
by Bendersquint
silencer_kid wrote: the scenario i ask about is, if i bring my own safe and its bolted to their floor, and only a wrecking ball can take it, and only i can get into the safe, can i leave my item in the safe as only i have control to get at the item. not that anyone would do this, just saying.
That would be fine.
silencer_kid wrote:what about this one. your sbr is in name of trust, you then add machinist name to trust, now he can keep it w/o you there, when done you remove him from the trust ;)
41P would squish that as the updated trust would have to be notarized and whats more serious a thought.......would you give a stranger your firearm and rights to your trust assets as well? I know I wouldn't.
silencer_kid wrote:and did i miss it, form-1 does or does not have a time limit to finish the manufacturing of the item? do the batf rules state that it must be 100% manufactured before placing into service?

If its built from scratch then there is no time limit to fabricate it, if you are simply converting a Title1 to Title2 then you need to comply as soon as possible as they consider it a title2 firearm as soon as you get the stamp.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:08 am
by edteach
I took it in to a place that did it as I stood there, but its not as deep as it should be. Laser and its fine looks great but not as deep. At least it gets me marked until I can figure out where to get it done again deeper.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:01 am
by silencer_kid
Bendersquint wrote: 41P would squish that as the updated trust would have to be notarized and whats more serious a thought.......would you give a stranger your firearm and rights to your trust assets as well? I know I wouldn't.
i would not, you can add trustees w/o giving them control ;)
batf does not address Trusts in full (thank goodness), not sure they would know how to, and it would probably take a long time to change the verbiage because of all the political-lawyer crap that would be there.
Bendersquint wrote: If its built from scratch then there is no time limit to fabricate it, if you are simply converting a Title1 to Title2 then you need to comply as soon as possible as they consider it a title2 firearm as soon as you get the stamp.
this makes sense. so i could essentially have a form-1 item w/o the markings for as long as i wanted under a "making still in progress" notion. lawyer fees likely? maybe. criminal act? no.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:09 am
by Tony M.
edteach wrote:I took it in to a place that did it as I stood there, but its not as deep as it should be. Laser and its fine looks great but not as deep. At least it gets me marked until I can figure out where to get it done again deeper.
It only has to be .003" deep, is it shallower than that?

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:14 am
by silencer_kid
Tony M. wrote:
edteach wrote:I took it in to a place that did it as I stood there, but its not as deep as it should be. Laser and its fine looks great but not as deep. At least it gets me marked until I can figure out where to get it done again deeper.
It only has to be .003" deep, is it shallower than that?
the laser probably did surface burning and not material removal. the batf rules for 0.003 is kinda silly, probably dating back before laser engraving was viable. laser etching should suffice, batf verbiage should allow it, and they should simply warn "must be clearly readable at all times. if a LEO (local,state,fed) cannot easily ascertain the etching information such LEO has the right to confiscate the item for further investigation"

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:19 am
by edteach
It only took off the anodizing. It looks great but its not going to pass. I had him put it above the firing pin 1/16 so its small. I found a local shop that will do it and does it for all the gun shops around and will do it for 65 and has the class lisc. to hold the receiver. Its a 3 day turn around so I will suck up the 40 bucks wasted and have it done there for the 65. Trophy shops are not the way to go, they don't know what they are doing and don't realize that they are breaking the law asking to hold the lower without the one with the stamp there.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:11 pm
by Tony M.
I've been using a place in South Carolina for the last several projects I've done. They're fast, professional, and inexpensive. I think including shipping, my last stuff was a week turnaround. They're doing laser engraving, but meet the standards required to be legal.

What type of lower are you SBR'ing? (asking because of the mention of the 'firing pin')

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:13 pm
by edteach
Its a PSA lower

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:48 pm
by MJF1911
I had my local jeweler do it, $20 for two guns, half an hour for the job.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:24 pm
by edteach
MJF1911 wrote:I had my local jeweler do it, $20 for two guns, half an hour for the job.
I live in SWF and to find a person to do the job without wanting to keep it is difficult. I ended up going with Accubeam out of Sarasota. They have the FFLs to keep the receiver, showed me two anderson receivers they did as examples and said two to three days. Should have it back Tuesday. The Engraver from the Trophy shop in Port Charlotte was a complete rube. Did not have the FFLs said it would be done in two days no problem then looked at me like a deer in the head lights when I came in to pick it up. He knew it was not really a great idea to leave it with him. If they can not tell me the truth when it will be done then I am done. Left neg review of his business and took my lower back.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:45 am
by Bendersquint
silencer_kid wrote:
Bendersquint wrote: 41P would squish that as the updated trust would have to be notarized and whats more serious a thought.......would you give a stranger your firearm and rights to your trust assets as well? I know I wouldn't.
i would not, you can add trustees w/o giving them control ;)
batf does not address Trusts in full (thank goodness), not sure they would know how to, and it would probably take a long time to change the verbiage because of all the political-lawyer crap that would be there.
Bendersquint wrote: If its built from scratch then there is no time limit to fabricate it, if you are simply converting a Title1 to Title2 then you need to comply as soon as possible as they consider it a title2 firearm as soon as you get the stamp.
this makes sense. so i could essentially have a form-1 item w/o the markings for as long as i wanted under a "making still in progress" notion. lawyer fees likely? maybe. criminal act? no.
When you have the tube done it needs engraving as you made the silencer. Remember the silencer is the registered component so ATF doesn't want unmarked NFA items floating around.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:48 am
by Bendersquint
edteach wrote:Laser and its fine looks great but not as deep. At least it gets me marked until I can figure out where to get it done again deeper.
If the marking is not compliant and meet the marking requirements then you mine as well not have the tube marked at all.

You don't get a buy for doing it half way. Plain and simple that is non-compliant.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:02 pm
by edteach
Bendersquint wrote:
edteach wrote:Laser and its fine looks great but not as deep. At least it gets me marked until I can figure out where to get it done again deeper.
If the marking is not compliant and meet the marking requirements then you mine as well not have the tube marked at all.

You don't get a buy for doing it half way. Plain and simple that is non-compliant.
Can you name me a time when someone had ATF take the receiver put silly putty in the engraving and measured the depth of the type? I can not even find a rumor of such a happening. LMAO. I would bet tomorrows rent that I would never even have to worry an inch about it at all. Its more of a safe than sorry to have it engraved at all. I know several people at the ranges who shoot SBRs all the time and tell me I do not have to engrave and they don't no one presses the issue. That said my receiver is at a company that laser engraves to 4 thousands of an inch. They do engraving just a bit over the requirement.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:37 pm
by edteach
LOL, I can hear the fold song now, I'm sitting here on the group W bench next to a father raper and they ask me what are you in for, and I say, .002 of an inch. And they all slide away from me. They had glossy 8x10 color photos with circles and arrows and writing on the back explaining what each one was. We can call it Alice's engraving massacre.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:22 pm
by usmcvet0331
edteach wrote:It only took off the anodizing. It looks great but its not going to pass. I had him put it above the firing pin 1/16 so its small. I found a local shop that will do it and does it for all the gun shops around and will do it for 65 and has the class lisc. to hold the receiver. Its a 3 day turn around so I will suck up the 40 bucks wasted and have it done there for the 65. Trophy shops are not the way to go, they don't know what they are doing and don't realize that they are breaking the law asking to hold the lower without the one with the stamp there.

If you remove the upper and just leave the lower it's no longer an SBR. That does not address the issue of them not having a standard FFL.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:42 pm
by edteach
The place I took it to Accubeam in Sarasota did a good job and on the time sched. they said it would be done in. Also they have FFLs to handle all classes. Did a very nice job. I did put whiteout in the engraving to make it show up better. Does ATF call paint fill as taking away from the depth?:)

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:59 pm
by MJF1911
edteach wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
edteach wrote:Laser and its fine looks great but not as deep. At least it gets me marked until I can figure out where to get it done again deeper.
If the marking is not compliant and meet the marking requirements then you mine as well not have the tube marked at all.

You don't get a buy for doing it half way. Plain and simple that is non-compliant.
Can you name me a time when someone had ATF take the receiver put silly putty in the engraving and measured the depth of the type? I can not even find a rumor of such a happening. LMAO. I would bet tomorrows rent that I would never even have to worry an inch about it at all. Its more of a safe than sorry to have it engraved at all. I know several people at the ranges who shoot SBRs all the time and tell me I do not have to engrave and they don't no one presses the issue. That said my receiver is at a company that laser engraves to 4 thousands of an inch. They do engraving just a bit over the requirement.

It is far too easy to just do it and not ever have to worry about it. There used to be a guy that posted here that did some time over an NFA item. I'm sure he had the same mentality when he did whatever he did.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:55 am
by stengun
Howdy,

If you live in the D/FW area, or want to ship to them there a place in Rockwall ( east side of metro area) that will do it while you wait. They even stay open until 8pm a couple of nights a week.

I don't recall their name, only have it listed as SBR engraving in my iPhone but their phone number is:

(469) 464-5500

When I SBR my 300 Blackout pistol that's who I will use.

Paul

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:31 pm
by tootall
I have used Gray Laser in TX. Bill Gray is a 007/002 FFL/SOT and you can mail your stuff to him... $55 each and shipping. Fantastic service and quality. Very deep and looks like machine engraving...

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:23 am
by JoeLiberty
Bendersquint wrote:
It is illegal to leave a firearm at a shop that does not have an FFL. It is considered a transfer, and also throws the shop into the wind and can get them charged as acting like a gunsmith without a license.
Wait, really? Is that based on local laws? As stated before, without the barrel attached, it is not an SBR. It's just a firearm, right?
It seems like if one could legally sell that firearm to another state resident, then one could also loan it out or otherwise 'transfer' it to just about anyone (that is not known to you to be a prohibited person). What makes that illegal?
No expert, just asking.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:43 am
by Tony M.
JoeLiberty wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
It is illegal to leave a firearm at a shop that does not have an FFL. It is considered a transfer, and also throws the shop into the wind and can get them charged as acting like a gunsmith without a license.
Wait, really? Is that based on local laws? As stated before, without the barrel attached, it is not an SBR. It's just a firearm, right?
It seems like if one could legally sell that firearm to another state resident, then one could also loan it out or otherwise 'transfer' it to just about anyone (that is not known to you to be a prohibited person). What makes that illegal?
No expert, just asking.
A more accurate statement would be that it is potentially illegal for a non-licensed business or person to perform gunsmithing services and take customer firearms. The end user hasn't broken the law, but the business *MAY* have.

Re: getting SBR engraved.

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:27 pm
by CanOfWhooppass
I think there may be more to consider if my understanding is correct. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
First, legaly a reciever is a firearm even if you can't shoot it in its current condition.
You can't give, loan, leave under the control of: a firearm to a Felon, a pistol to under 21, any firearm to a minor, under restraining order, etc. How do you know who works at the local trophy engraver?

A FFL probably will secure your reciever in a safe, or at least be a heavily secured and alarmed building.

We know people who shouldn't legaly have guns can't get a FFL.

Just seems like so much to risk over a little shipping to a safe bet.