Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

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Luv2Shoot
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Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Luv2Shoot » Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:37 pm

IMO the suppressor industry as a whole needs to amp up their game!

I have always been an accuracy based shooter and other than TBAC, the suppressor industry seems almost totally oblivious to doing any respectable accuracy testing of their suppressors along with putting forth any such results. All I see is sound testing - whoopee and big deal - if you are shooting supersonic loads at short or long range, it's still best to have some hearing protection anyway just because of the supersonic bullet crack, and if you are shooting an AR based type rifle you should as well because of the supersonic blast of gas that comes out of the side of the bolt carrier (whether you are shooting supersonic or subsonic loads) when the carrier cycles. Of course there are "macho" shooters who will go with no hearing protection in the scenarios I note, but if they do a lot of shooting, they'll almost certainly be wearing hearing aids later on in life as their payback for that.

In just my recent work with a few different suppressors, I can see right away that some have real issues when it comes to accuracy (i.e. but don't worry, if your shooting and AR based 300 BLK or 5.56, etc. you can still typically get 2" at 100 yards with no problems) but getting a can that has the capability to consistently do .5 MOA - - now that's another story!

It's very frustrating because with most cans in the industry there is virtually no accuracy info available so it's a "buy it and try it" to see whether it will do the job required.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by quiettime » Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:48 pm

I think the main problem with accuracy testing cans is every rifle is going to shoot differently than the next especially with different ammunition.

So can mfg shows a target and says this is what our can will do with OUR rifle with THIS ammo. Customer buys and puts on his rifle and shoots different ammo and it doesn't shoot as accurately so he's pissed.

Not to mention, accuracy has only recently become an "out-of-the-box" game where factory rifles will generally shoot an inch or less at 100 yds/meters with factory ammo. Even still, if you want the best accuracy, say 1" at 200 or even 1" at 300, you're going to have to be willing to spend some time and effort to find the combination the rifle wants (probably handload) not to mention to condition yourself to be able to shoot sub-moa (nobody wants to admit they can't just grab a rifle and start shooting one hole groups without practice).

If you put in the time and practice and have a decent rifle and a decently-manufactured can to start out with, you're eventually going to end up with decent accuracy. Few, if any of the top MFG's make a can that's going to make your rifle shoot worse in general

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by CanOfWhooppass » Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:51 pm

I think there are just too many variables to account for unless your talking complete weapons package with suppressor. Besides, with the internet, why waste resources when your customer base will publish findings anyway.
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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Luv2Shoot » Sat Mar 05, 2016 8:56 pm

To me the reasons set forth in the two posts above don't make sense (i.e. "each rifle is different" and "there are too many variables" as a justification why a maker cannot make a suppressor that will consistently perform accurately when fed the right stuff). Each barrel is different and so are the components we use for build ups, but we have no problems consistently making .5 MOA shooters.

It's interesting, on Friday I called a major suppressor manufacturer that produces some very premium cans (not TBAC) and whose product had been touted as having high "accuracy" potential. I called to specifically inquire as to what "accuracy" testing was done and at what ranges and what they could furnish insofar as what results they were able to achieve with whatever they used as their test platform - - and guess what I was told - - - surprisingly, they really had not done any real definitive accuracy testing, particularly at longer ranges and they could furnish nothing. That's ridiculous! What was the basis of their claim of "accuracy" potential? That their manufacturing techniques allows them to hold tighter tolerances and their mounting set up is conducive to better accuracy than others in the market (i.e. not that the design of their cans and baffle set up has been shown not to disrupt or distort the bullet's flight path, etc., etc.).

One of the reasons this is an issue is a lot of our accuracy based customers want to shoot suppressed and don't want to buy a can only to find out after going through all the hubbub that accuracy goes in the toilet.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by TROOPER » Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:30 pm

When a person buys a silencer, unless the silencer manufacturer also does the threading and makes the barrel and supplies the ammunition.... then there are simply too many variables to account for. What about barrel length and harmonics and trigger and shooter?

Plus, you say that silencer manufacturers only talk about suppression levels -- whoopedoo!

Well maybe I don't speak for every shooter out there, but in observing what goes on in this forum, one of the most-asked questions is, "What <caliber> silencer is quietest?" I don't recall reading posts about having a sorry rifle, and wondering what silencer could straighten that out.

At any rate, if you believe that you're representative of a silent majority of shooters, then begin to test and publish data. If you're right, then there's genuine money to be made here given that the niche remains unfilled. Me personally? I don't think you are right. I think that people that care about accuracy first, don't care about suppression. As you have already noted: you've got to wear hearing protection any way.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Luv2Shoot » Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:32 pm

TROOPER wrote:When a person buys a silencer, unless the silencer manufacturer also does the threading and makes the barrel and supplies the ammunition.... then there are simply too many variables to account for.

. . . . . .

Too many variables to account for what?

Too many variables to make something that performs consistently well?

Too many variables to make something that by its design and manufacture is not detrimental to accuracy?

We make accuracy muzzle brakes that, if installed correctly, will not be detrimental to accuracy and in many cases improve accuracy, so it makes no sense to me that a suppressor manufacturer cannot do that too? FWIW - - TBAC does that right now - - so don't say it cannot be done - - it just seems like the rest of the industry is asleep or have become complacent because customers perhaps either don't know the difference or don't care or just don't demand better.
Last edited by Luv2Shoot on Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by kbillet » Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:35 pm

Long range shooting and hunting is a up and coming thing. Anyone that is serious about it is already dealing with precision, with quality guns, barrels, triggers and developing loads for accuracy. There are definitely designs that are better for accuracy but not necessarily for sound reduction. Suppression helps with precision in that how it affects recoil. I don't think Luvtoshoot was asking for a suppressor that would compensate for other inaccuracy. Just one that would not adversely affect accuracy. After all, not every one gets there jollies by dumping 30 rounds in 30 seconds from a 10" barrel that sprays like a paint gun.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by curtistactical » Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:53 pm

We build precision rifles and suppressors. With our suppressors we can mount the same suppressor on 10 different rifles and get 10 different point of impact shifts but the accuracy is unaffected even if the suppressor is indexed the same on every gun. What we have found is that it is more of a harmonics and weight issue than it is the suppressor affecting the bullet flight on high velocity rifle rounds, rimfire and handgun rounds are a different story. Our rifles 30cal and smaller are guaranteed 1/4moa suppressed and unsuppressed if you are using one of our suppressors.
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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Luv2Shoot » Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:31 pm

FWIW - - I was not talking of POI impact shift between suppressed and unsuppressed, I was referring to accuracy (i.e. if you are shooting all the time you are doing accuracy shooting with the can on).

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by TROOPER » Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:43 pm

What do you think affects the accuracy as it pertains to a silencer? With the bullet not touching anything, that really only leaves concentricity of threads to muzzle and bore, as well as perpendicularity... none of which come from the silencer manufacturer. Beyond that, the manufacturer can make its baffles concentric, and the unit very rigid to itself, but not relative to the barrel if the thread-job is done poorly or out of spec for the silencer itself.

All of this stuff that you're saying, is it a sales pitch? Are you trying to establish market dominance for your product in one particular category?

Most of what you're saying sounds like hyperbole since it doesn't take into account the totality of factors that influence accuracy.

What silencers are you finding to negatively affect accuracy? Is there a particular brand? Because again, I don't see any real claims beyond vague negation; IE, no one is guaranteeing this (except this entity), but not that no one's is doing this. Big difference.

A quality product that delivers doesn't need a guarantee, it simply does what it is supposed to do.

... also, what does a 'guarantee' do for a silencer's accuracy? It isn't like you can return it for a full refund if the accuracy isn't 100% unaffected by the practice of hanging a chunk of metal on the end of a barrel.
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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by TROOPER » Sat Mar 05, 2016 11:46 pm

Never mind. I clicked on your profile and this is the one and only thread you've ever commented under. Hell, you started it.

I don't care if you're a manufacturer talking about your product, after all, this is the forum for that sort of thing. But this business of acting like an un-biased customer who just happens to have found a gem-of-a-product and wants to share it.... there's a level of dishonesty here, and I don't care for that at all.

I'm done with this one.
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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by doubloon » Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:39 am

TROOPER wrote:... that really only leaves concentricity of threads to muzzle and bore, as well as perpendicularity... ...
And harmonics
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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by TROOPER » Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:45 am

doubloon wrote:
TROOPER wrote:... that really only leaves concentricity of threads to muzzle and bore, as well as perpendicularity... ...
And harmonics
.... yeah, but I said I was done with this thread. So I suck, because I'm still going.

I don't disagree at all, I just meant things that a silencer manufacturer could control. I don't see how anyone can control the harmonics short of trial-and-error to find the correct mass-and-length to hang off of a barrel. Even if brand-X is the very best, hanging it off of a 24-inch sporter barrel versus a 20-inch sporter barrel could make a meaningful difference... but how could they know that until they've put it on there? Doesn't barrel-whip change for a whole slew of reasons beyond just length?

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by whiterussian1974 » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:08 am

TROOPER wrote: I don't see how anyone can control the harmonics short of trial-and-error to find the correct mass-and-length to hang off of a barrel.
Doesn't barrel-whip change for a whole slew of reasons beyond just length?
The Industry would test w a 8"L x 1"OD fluted test barrel (or maybe even 2"OD w no flutes) to nearly eliminate whip and harmonics. And probably test @ 25m to claim that 5 shots fit into "1 ragged hole."

A Mil-Spec might req an 18" sporter barrel on an AR15 or 24" M24/Rem700P. Then, Mnfrs would highly customize the build for accuracy and handload rds.

So in short, you are completely correct. Too many variables to report reproducable data. Maybe they could list the IDs for baffle bore clearance. Or publish concentricity and runout of units from QC evals. A production statistics table.
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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by whiterussian1974 » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:16 am

Luv2shoot: You didn't post your location. You could go to a FFL that has suppressors in stock. Then ask to shoot them from your host weapon. Some allow patrons to "rent" them for use in their on-site shooting lane. Very popular option in Houston ranges.
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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Luv2Shoot » Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:57 am

TROOPER wrote:
All of this stuff that you're saying, is it a sales pitch? Are you trying to establish market dominance for your product in one particular category?
What's that all about? That's from out in left field. I have not tried to sell anything and I have not even identified my business.

Back to what the thread is really about now - - - -

What suppressor makers in many cases are touting is that their suppressors are the "quietest". There's the issue right there - - in some cases to make a suppressor the "quietest" and it can have very adverse consequences on bullet accuracy. For example, look at the write up of U.S. Patent #7,073,426, that issue is openly discussed in that baffle design patent. The issue is to make a suppressor quiet, you need to disrupt the flow of gasses from the muzzle to exit of the can, but the bullet also pass through all those disrupted gasses and gets buffeted every which way from that. Certain baffle designs can "kick" a bullet and/or introduce yaw into the bullet, some much less than others. In my testing with just a few different suppressors, most all seem to shoot pretty tight at shorter ranges, but the further out you go, the bullet dispersion as between various suppressors becomes real noticeable (i.e. the dispersion become progressively worse with certain suppressors and not so with others).

At 50 yards, it's very hard to tell, but at 100 yards, some start to open up even there.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by doubloon » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:35 am

TROOPER wrote:... I just meant things ...
Point taken, this thread was a non-starter for me entirely until people started contributing logical thoughts.

Accuracy testing for every barrel profile/length/rifling/crown and every bullet/case/powder/primer combination out there so a suppressor manufacturer can say "my suppressor produces the best repeatable accuracy on a 22" bull barrel Mosin Nagant threaded with a 2.3125" blast baffle clearance" probably isn't going to grab much of the market.

If you want "perfect" for a specific rifle with a specific suppressor and a specific ballistic confection that's where the custom market steps in ... go see Bender.
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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by quiettime » Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:40 pm

Luv2Shoot wrote:To me the reasons set forth in the two posts above don't make sense (i.e. "each rifle is different" and "there are too many variables" as a justification why a maker cannot make a suppressor that will consistently perform accurately when fed the right stuff). Each barrel is different and so are the components we use for build ups, but we have no problems consistently making .5 MOA shooters.
You've missed, or overlooked, the meat of what I was saying.

You take X rifle and Y ammunition and put Z silencer on the end and claim .5 MOA. Customer then buys Z silencer and put it on the end of A rifle and shoot with B ammunition and gets 1.5 MOA. Then without spending the time to try different ammunition to find out maybe his rifle can shoot .3 MOA, or maybe (more likely) his rifle shoots 1.5 MOA without the silencer on it, or maybe the best he can personally shoot is 1.5 MOA, customer posts on A-rifle.com that Z Silencer LLC is full of prunes and making false claims.

Why spend the time and effort to publish data that's not easily repeated over a large sample set when it could be used (however erroneously) against you? And if you don't believe that would happen, just look at the DB numbers that mfg's DO publish that take a lot more expensive equipment to test for than accuracy....

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by quiettime » Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:46 pm

Luv2Shoot wrote:
We make accuracy muzzle brakes that, if installed correctly, will not be detrimental to accuracy and in many cases improve accuracy, so it makes no sense to me that a suppressor manufacturer cannot do that too? FWIW - - TBAC does that right now - - ...
Who is "We"?

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by PBinWA » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:03 pm

Good "What the Pro's Use" overview:

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/12/1 ... uppressor/

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Luv2Shoot » Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:55 pm

quiettime wrote:
Luv2Shoot wrote:
We make accuracy muzzle brakes that, if installed correctly, will not be detrimental to accuracy and in many cases improve accuracy, so it makes no sense to me that a suppressor manufacturer cannot do that too? FWIW - - TBAC does that right now - - ...
Who is "We"?

Well gee - - at this point, I am not inclined to say. Somebody already made a suggestion/query on this thread whether I was trying to sell something or establish a market dominance for something, which is bogus and not what the thread was about anyway, so I am not going to go there. Not trying to be a wise guy - - just not going to get away from the real issue.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by whiterussian1974 » Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:53 pm

Luv2Shoot wrote:To me the reasons set forth in the two posts above don't make sense (i.e. "each rifle is different" and "there are too many variables" as a justification why a maker cannot make a suppressor that will consistently perform accurately when fed the right stuff). Each barrel is different and so are the components we use for build ups, but we have no problems consistently making .5 MOA shooters.
I suppose that a Mnfr could claim .5MOA and if you don't get the same result, they could say that you haven't found the Cinderella rifle for that can? :? :(
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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by TROOPER » Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:49 pm

Luv2Shoot wrote:Well gee - - at this point, I am not inclined to say. Somebody already made a suggestion/query on this thread whether I was trying to sell something or establish a market dominance for something, which is bogus and not what the thread was about anyway, so I am not going to go there. Not trying to be a wise guy - - just not going to get away from the real issue.
Don't be whiney, I asked a question. It wasn't a statement, it was a QUESTION.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Luv2Shoot » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:01 pm

TROOPER wrote:
Luv2Shoot wrote:Well gee - - at this point, I am not inclined to say. Somebody already made a suggestion/query on this thread whether I was trying to sell something or establish a market dominance for something, which is bogus and not what the thread was about anyway, so I am not going to go there. Not trying to be a wise guy - - just not going to get away from the real issue.
Don't be whiney, I asked a question. It wasn't a statement, it was a QUESTION.

Hmmmm - - - "query" = question, so I don't see what the problem is.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by whiterussian1974 » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:18 pm

TROOPER wrote:I don't care if you're a manufacturer talking about your product, after all, this is the forum for that sort of thing. But this business of acting like an un-biased customer who just happens to have found a gem-of-a-product and wants to share it.... there's a level of dishonesty here, and I don't care for that at all.
Seems like an extremely fair point.
Luv? Tell us what product you are comparing the others to.
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