Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

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silencer_kid
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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by silencer_kid » Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:44 pm

thecameraman79 wrote: With a form 1 can you get one shot from all the internet research in the world and then hope in the end it turns out to be as good/better then a similar commercial can that has had a ton or research and testing put into it.
you are reading page 29 before pages 1-28.
the end product is results of design, milling 1,000 baffles to get it right and using only 9 of them is just experience and finger cuts. thus not really sure what you mean by one shot. the baffles dont seem to work right, go into the garage and machine more. the cans i do or do not have, have one set of internals, and they come from one session on the lathe. Image. get real folks, batf doent really give a crap whats in your F1 tube, as long as they have your $200, your can is within paperwork spec, and its for your own personal use, batf not wasting $$ on you, machine away.
TROOPER wrote:
The whole thing is one big sht-show, and the level of nit-picking here -- justifiable though it may be -- is probably precisely why so few manufacturers put up data about accuracy for a silencer. After all, a less than perfect fit of a perfect silencer, will still be the equivalent of adding a new, improperly crowned muzzle.
.
much easier to crown the end of a muzzle properly/accurately than it is to make a "perfect" concentric (bore aligned) silencer. and if you want to go down this rabbit hole, perfect concentric cannot be achieved with machinery, physics says so.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Traxxx » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:04 pm

Okay, back on topic. If I put brand X suppressor on a known accurate rifle, will it lose accuracy? I understand POI shift but will it group the same at the new POI? I don't get why it is to much to ask that the rifle be accurate and quiet. As far as the "to many variables" go that is a crock. If it can be done with brakes, barrels and even stocks then it can be done with a suppressor.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by silencer_kid » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:06 pm

Traxxx wrote:Okay, back on topic. If I put brand X suppressor on a known accurate rifle, will it lose accuracy? I understand POI shift but will it group the same at the new POI? I don't get why it is to much to ask that the rifle be accurate and quiet. As far as the "to many variables" go that is a crock. If it can be done with brakes, barrels and even stocks then it can be done with a suppressor.
short answer is, yes.
Last edited by silencer_kid on Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Traxxx » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:13 pm

silencer_kid wrote:
Traxxx wrote:Okay, back on topic. If I put brand X suppressor on a known accurate rifle, will it lose accuracy? I understand POI shift but will it group the same at the new POI? I don't get why it is to much to ask that the rifle be accurate and quiet. As far as the "to many variables" go that is a crock. If it can be done with brakes, barrels and even stocks then it can be done with a suppressor.
short answer is, yes.
Yes to will it lose accuracy or yes it will group the same or yes it is to much to ask or yes it is possible? :D

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by silencer_kid » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:27 pm

Traxxx wrote:
silencer_kid wrote:
Traxxx wrote:Okay, back on topic. If I put brand X suppressor on a known accurate rifle, will it lose accuracy? I understand POI shift but will it group the same at the new POI? I don't get why it is to much to ask that the rifle be accurate and quiet. As far as the "to many variables" go that is a crock. If it can be done with brakes, barrels and even stocks then it can be done with a suppressor.
short answer is, yes.
Yes to will it lose accuracy or yes it will group the same or yes it is to much to ask or yes it is possible? :D
i highlighted your Q,
If I put brand X suppressor on a known accurate rifle, will it lose accuracy?
i gave answer, yes.
Last edited by silencer_kid on Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Traxxx » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:36 pm

got ya, old eyes and all.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by silencer_kid » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:44 pm

Traxxx wrote:got ya, old eyes and all.
no worries, the others here think i am dumb. :lol: :lol: :lol:

and sure, the color scheme on this site is horrible. its phpBB, let us choose the styles we like, INSTALL SOME STYLES !! it takes about 1min to download and install styles for phpBB.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by whiterussian1974 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:28 am

silencer_kid wrote:no worries, the others here think i am dumb. :lol: :lol: :lol:
NO. We WISH that you remained dumb/mute. :lol:
Instead you are far TOO vocal. :roll:
(And I understand that dumb refers to speech. Written communication can also be referred to as visual speech transmission/record.)
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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by silencer_kid » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:59 am

whiterussian1974 wrote:
silencer_kid wrote:no worries, the others here think i am dumb. :lol: :lol: :lol:
NO. We WISH that you remained dumb/mute. :lol:
Instead you are far TOO vocal. :roll:
(And I understand that dumb refers to speech. Written communication can also be referred to as visual speech transmission/record.)
like the haters of howard stern FM radio station, if you need help turning the dial there are plenty of folks who will show you how to do it.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Bendersquint » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:16 am

Traxxx wrote:If I put brand X suppressor on a known accurate rifle, will it lose accuracy?
If the barrel is threaded correctly then adding a suppressor should only affect the POI shift. I have many cans from many manufacturers as well as my own manufactured cans and NONE of them impact accuracy in a negative way, in fact some make the host MORE accurate.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Tony M. » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:50 am

Bendersquint wrote:
Traxxx wrote:If I put brand X suppressor on a known accurate rifle, will it lose accuracy?
If the barrel is threaded correctly then adding a suppressor should only affect the POI shift. I have many cans from many manufacturers as well as my own manufactured cans and NONE of them impact accuracy in a negative way, in fact some make the host MORE accurate.
Agreed, I have never experienced a suppressor detracting from accuracy. Silencer squid has probably never actually handled a silencer, but he sure likes to talk a big game.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Tony M. » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:51 am

whiterussian1974 wrote:
silencer_kid wrote:no worries, the others here think i am dumb. :lol: :lol: :lol:
NO. We WISH that you remained dumb/mute. :lol:
Instead you are far TOO vocal. :roll:
(And I understand that dumb refers to speech. Written communication can also be referred to as visual speech transmission/record.)
It's amazing how much more I like and respect you when silencer squid is running around spouting bullshit.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by tsands974 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:06 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
Traxxx wrote:If I put brand X suppressor on a known accurate rifle, will it lose accuracy?
If the barrel is threaded correctly then adding a suppressor should only affect the POI shift. I have many cans from many manufacturers as well as my own manufactured cans and NONE of them impact accuracy in a negative way, in fact some make the host MORE accurate.
From my experience, POI shift aside, I have noticed that my groups tend to tighten slightly when a suppressor is used, regardless of the manufacturer of either the rifle or the can. This is easily noticeable to the eye out to 1,000 meters or more.

This may not be a constant for everyone, but it has been for me.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Capt. Link. » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:32 pm

tsands974 wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
Traxxx wrote:If I put brand X suppressor on a known accurate rifle, will it lose accuracy?
If the barrel is threaded correctly then adding a suppressor should only affect the POI shift. I have many cans from many manufacturers as well as my own manufactured cans and NONE of them impact accuracy in a negative way, in fact some make the host MORE accurate.
From my experience, POI shift aside, I have noticed that my groups tend to tighten slightly when a suppressor is used, regardless of the manufacturer of either the rifle or the can. This is easily noticeable to the eye out to 1,000 meters or more.

This may not be a constant for everyone, but it has been for me.
Bingo you both get 100% accuracy is normally enhanced with a suppressor.This was proven many years ago and was discussed in the Paulson books.
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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by 300sniper » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:43 pm

Someone could setup a test rig to determine the accuracy of different suppressors. The problem is, the results will be unique to the test rig. The results could and most likely would be completely different on a different platform. In other words, the test would be completely worthless.

Even if a MFG built a test rig and kept working on their own suppressor design until it had the best accuracy, that data is only good for the test rig. What is most accurate on the test rig, will probably not be the most accurate design on a different platform.
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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by silencer_kid » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:23 pm

300sniper wrote:Someone could setup a test rig to determine the accuracy of different suppressors. The problem is, the results will be unique to the test rig. The results could and most likely would be completely different on a different platform. In other words, the test would be completely worthless.

Even if a MFG built a test rig and kept working on their own suppressor design until it had the best accuracy, that data is only good for the test rig. What is most accurate on the test rig, will probably not be the most accurate design on a different platform.
right, so a tuned can for xyz rifle is the best scenario. lets exclude the exotics for now, just generic run of the mill cans twisted onto some general rifles, does the can impact accuracy? is a valid test. my crazy hypothesis is, yes, more % will be neg impact in that 200+ yds area. someone please test this.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Bendersquint » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:27 pm

silencer_kid wrote: right, so a tuned can for xyz rifle is the best scenario. lets exclude the exotics for now, just generic run of the mill cans twisted onto some general rifles, does the can impact accuracy? is a valid test. my crazy hypothesis is, yes, more % will be neg impact in that 200+ yds area. someone please test this.
This has been tested and proven many times that if the barrel is threaded correctly that the gun will not lose accuracy. Tested out to 500yds.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by silencer_kid » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:52 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
silencer_kid wrote: right, so a tuned can for xyz rifle is the best scenario. lets exclude the exotics for now, just generic run of the mill cans twisted onto some general rifles, does the can impact accuracy? is a valid test. my crazy hypothesis is, yes, more % will be neg impact in that 200+ yds area. someone please test this.
This has been tested and proven many times that if the barrel is threaded correctly that the gun will not lose accuracy. Tested out to 500yds.
tested with what exactly, 20 different cans?
OP mention .5MOA, which is 2 clicks on a 1/4 scope, so we are talking about 1/2" @ 100 yds. if the rifle is 1/2" @ 100 then will a can keep it there? maybe, but will every can keep it there (even with the "proper threads")? probably not.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Tony M. » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:56 pm

silencer_kid wrote:my crazy hypothesis is, yes, more % will be neg impact in that 200+ yds area. someone please test this.
Your postulation is once again, completely the opposite of people who actually have experience. It has been tested. If a suppressor reduces accuracy, then there is something likely wrong with either the rifle or the can.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by Bendersquint » Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:10 pm

silencer_kid wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
silencer_kid wrote: right, so a tuned can for xyz rifle is the best scenario. lets exclude the exotics for now, just generic run of the mill cans twisted onto some general rifles, does the can impact accuracy? is a valid test. my crazy hypothesis is, yes, more % will be neg impact in that 200+ yds area. someone please test this.
This has been tested and proven many times that if the barrel is threaded correctly that the gun will not lose accuracy. Tested out to 500yds.
tested with what exactly, 20 different cans?
OP mention .5MOA, which is 2 clicks on a 1/4 scope, so we are talking about 1/2" @ 100 yds. if the rifle is 1/2" @ 100 then will a can keep it there? maybe, but will every can keep it there (even with the "proper threads")? probably not.
16 cans. POI shifted but accuracy did not decline, some it tighened up.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by rimshaker » Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:29 pm

Mind boggling thread. Why is it so hard to accept that silencers improve accuracy (smaller groupings)? Especially with pistols.

Whoever keeps arguing against such a simple proven fact needs to get off the internet and go shooting more.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by thecameraman79 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:38 pm

Silencer Kid seems to be the only one flat out saying adding a suppressor will negatively increase group size all the time. Unless of course it's a F1 can that the vast majority of F1 builders do a better job then the big name commercial companies do. Can ANY suppressor negatively effect accuracy... Sure. But the majority of the time if everything is done properly from top to bottom it will either not effect accuracy or actually increase accuracy as stated by everyone else.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by curtistactical » Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:46 pm

silencer_kid wrote: much easier to crown the end of a muzzle properly/accurately than it is to make a "perfect" concentric (bore aligned) silencer. and if you want to go down this rabbit hole, perfect concentric cannot be achieved with machinery, physics says so.
First off I am having fun reading all of this. I work at a machine shop where we make diamond tooling and concentricity/runout has to be <1 micron, that is <.000039" in standard terms. I would say that is pretty close to perfect if you ask me. Now for my suppressors with the tolerances I hold it is possible for it to have .003" runout which when you have at least .04" bore clearance doesn't mean anything.
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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by TROOPER » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:10 pm

silencer_kid wrote:much easier to crown the end of a muzzle properly/accurately than it is to make a "perfect" concentric (bore aligned) silencer. and if you want to go down this rabbit hole, perfect concentric cannot be achieved with machinery, physics says so.
My whole point was that a perfect silencer with an imperfect fit would be the equivalent of adding a bad crown job. That matters, because if "Silencer Company X" promises great accuracy with their product, and their product really is perfect, it wouldn't matter how flawless the silencer is if it is put on to a bad thread-job, which the silencer manufacturer cannot control.

He responded with the above quote. I don't know why he did that.

I also don't know why he called that a rabbit-hole, but then pursues this other vein-of-thought regarding loose baffles.... as though that was a relevant 'rabbit-hole', but a bad thread job isn't.

The whole thing is frustrating.... and baffling. The pursuit of perfection out to fifteen decimal places... I get it. But in practical terms, the uncontrollable variables provide so much more variance between shots, that at a certain point, refining perfection quickly runs into a "diminishing-returns" category.

To the OP: there are too many variables for manufacturers to guarantee accuracy. Furthermore, I'd wager that a tremendous amount of silencer use takes place with subsonics, and subsonic ammunition has a practical range limit which is just too short for a 0.0000005 instead of 0.0000007 inch error in tolerance to show up. With the supersonics, I'd wager most of that is done with an AR chambered in 2.23/5.56; and while some people refer to their ARs as a 'tack-driver', no one is actually using their suppressed AR to 'drive tacks'.

Point being, not only do silencer manufacturers have a good reason to avoid accuracy guarantees... there is also minimal demand for such a thing from the users.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... a very small group of people shoot extremely long range, extremely accurately, and do want to use a silencer. But top-tier shooters tailor their ammo, barrels, actions, scope, stock, and everything else to accuracy. It doesn't seem likely they'd go 'off-the-shelf' with a $350 unit and then complain.

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Re: Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

Post by silencer_kid » Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:22 pm

time and $$ that yields no measurable results is indeed wasted $$ and time not well spent.

running the 1/4mi in 2.999999999999999 sec vs your competitor at 3.0000000000000000 means the 3sec guy lost, so the extra $$ and time put into the valve job was worth it for that -0.000000000000001sec

if .249" grouping is better than .250" grouping @ 100 yds and you spent 14hrs and and extra $100 to get that better result, then its is a better result and the value for that better grouping is up to the owner, not anyone else.

no such thing as perfect, you cannot machine anything to the # you desire, you'll get close, but not perfect.

and right, the ultimate shooters have ultimate devices for ultimate accuracy. the question as OP puts it, does screwing on a can impact accuracy. almost always yes it does. with a quality barrel/threading to start with then perhaps less impact on accuracy. and yes, i have seen a few articles about how some cans on some rifles made groupings a tad tighter, but that was not a comparison between cans.

you totally missed the point with the rabbit-hole, so nevermind.

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