Industry Accuracy Testing Is Non Existent!

[Luv2Shoot]

I don't care if you're a manufacturer talking about your product, after all, this is the forum for that sort of thing. But this business of acting like an un-biased customer who just happens to have found a gem-of-a-product and wants to share it.... there's a level of dishonesty here, and I don't care for that at all.

Seems like an extremely fair point.
Luv? Tell us what product you are comparing the others to.

No way I am going to get into speaking ill of anyone's product in particular - - that's bad form and I won't do it.

I have no interest in anyone's suppressors, only trying to find ones that have a predisposition toward accuracy and am frustrated by the complete lack of decent accuracy info.

Trooper's throwing out the suggestion of "dishonesty" is ridiculous and without any merit - - he doesn't know me, who I am or what business I am in.

[whiterussian1974]

I have no interest in anyone's suppressors, only trying to find ones that have a predisposition toward accuracy and am frustrated by the complete lack of decent accuracy info.

Then just read through the "Reviews" Section. Users post their findings there. And that is far more believable than anything that a Mnfr would publish.

[glocker17]

There is no known way to measure the accuracy of a product like this, too may variables. An accuracy test , would likely be more of a barrel harmonics/thread job test. That being said, in most cases my host shoots just as good with can attached as it did before.

For the most part accuracy issues don't seem to be an issue at all with most owners, suppression is a much bigger issues. Like I said, I have no issue with accuracy with can attached and there is relatively few posts from users that do.

I think you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist in the current marketplace.

[rimshaker]

Accuracy generally means grouping and repeatability. It's a little more complicated than even POI shift.

With POI shift you can blame parts, harmonics, ammo, tolerance stacking, silencer quality, etc. But it can be easily adjusted for (if repeatable).

But with accuracy, shooter skills also come into play now. So the way i'm reading this thread... either most cans suck, or you just need to practice shooting more

[TROOPER]

Well gee - - at this point, I am not inclined to say. Somebody already made a suggestion/query on this thread whether I was trying to sell something or establish a market dominance for something, which is bogus and not what the thread was about anyway, so I am not going to go there. Not trying to be a wise guy - - just not going to get away from the real issue.

Don't be whiney, I asked a question. It wasn't a statement, it was a QUESTION.

Hmmmm - - - "query" = question, so I don't see what the problem is.

Well, it's possible that you're being reasonable/completely-and-totally-irrational.

See what I did there? I put a slash between two distinctly different concepts so that when you complain about me calling you completely-and-totally-irrational, I can come back and highlight the 'reasonable' word, and play-pretend that's what I meant all along.

Here's a basic question: what is the point of this thread? And why does that motivation - whatever it is - exist?

It could be nothing more than you venting your frustration, but at the same time you seem almost to be alluding to a particular product which left you unsatisfied, or you're implying that a product which is exempt from your frustrations exists.... but you won't name either. It gives us very little to work with. What are the EEI for this thread?

Or... you're building up some ground-level marketing for your, or a friend's, business venture. Ok, so what is it?

I can't easily think of an "option C", so that means it's a complaint thread, or a sales thread. Complaint doesn't seem right, but sales thread doesn't seem exactly right either. Which is why I asked.

So what's the deal here? Why'd you create an account and start this thread? Because whatever the motivation for creating an account was, starting this thread is the ONLY thing you've done on this forum. Hey, that's fine, I've certainly joined other forums specifically to start a thread... usually to solicit information, but once-in-a-blue-moon it's to share information. But you've done neither of those things. No specifics have been shared. So what's your deal? You created a username and password and jumped through a few hoops solely to complain?

Really?

[whiterussian1974]

Well, it's possible that you're being reasonable/completely-and-totally-irrational.

See what I did there? I put a slash between two distinctly different concepts so that when you complain about me calling you completely-and-totally-irrational, I can come back and highlight the 'reasonable' word, and play-pretend that's what I meant all along.

That's a Trumpism for the Ages.
It's a Psychologic technique called "The rainbow ruse."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_read ... inbow_ruse
And Trump has shown that when you express mutually contradictory statements simultaneously, the Observer will pick the version that they like best and Attribute the Speaker w credit.
---
FWIW I thought that Luv was complaining and suggesting a new criterion for Mnfrs to publish.
And the "we" ref to F1s. But who knows? Luv obviously, and he ain't a sayin'.

[Bendersquint]

There are FAR too many variables to put accuracy claims outside of very controlled scenarios.

Why do you see QUIETEST over ACCURACY in advertising/website propoganda?

The majority of consumer market cares more about sound level than accuracy(aside from POI shift).

For the minority of the market that cares about accuracy over sound level there are shops like TBAC that focus on that market.

[thecameraman79]

I preface this with "I'm not an expert" but from my experience shooting with and without suppressors there is definite POI shift with all suppressors vs without them and some more then others with QD vs DT and from suppressor to suppressor and that is to be expected and there are some more then others but is always repeatable shift with my suppressors anyway.

I know we are talking about a loss of accuracy in this post (group size). What I personally haven't seen was a rifle shoot worse groups with a can vs without it. Nor have I ever heard it mentioned that someone shot larger groups with the can on. I have heard that suppressors actually shrink groups never make them larger. I haven't done a ton of testing to make the claim that they increase accuracy but what I can say is none of the suppressors I own have opened up my groups.

Id actually be interested if anyone has notice there groups getting larger? Maybe because of the suppressor hanging off the end it effects the harmonics and the rifle with suppressor combo and might prefer a different load then it did without the suppressor but I highly doubt adding a suppressor would make a rifle less accurate unless you are getting a slight baffle strike.

[whiterussian1974]

I know we are talking about a loss of accuracy in this post (group size). What I personally haven't seen was a rifle shoot worse groups with a can vs without it. Nor have I ever heard it mentioned that someone shot larger groups with the can on.
... but I highly doubt adding a suppressor would make a rifle less accurate unless you are getting a slight baffle strike.

There have been a few cases of people posting loss of accuracy. But Members have always been able to suggest corrections and they've worked. One time it was a non-concentric muzzle thread. Another, baffle clearance was too close and caused wobble. Yet again, 1 person needed to change the 1st 2 baffles from Ks to cones, or notched cones to unnotched b/c the assymetric high early pressure was inducing yaw.

So accuracy "can" suffer. Luckily unless the design is fundamentally flawed, it can be corrected.
Properly designed/mnfrd cans IMPROVE accuracy and limit the time that the projectile is subjected to muzzle blast. In atm, bullet perturbed by massive plume upon sudden release.

[silencer_kid]

What do you think affects the accuracy as it pertains to a silencer? With the bullet not touching anything, that really only leaves concentricity of threads to muzzle and bore, as well as perpendicularity... none of which come from the silencer manufacturer. Beyond that, the manufacturer can make its baffles concentric, and the unit very rigid to itself, but not relative to the barrel if the thread-job is done poorly or out of spec for the silencer itself.

huh? simple math tells us that if a cone/k/whatever baffle has OD that is perfectly round, and a perfectly round/concentric hole in center, and that part needs clearance into a tube, then the baffle center hole is no longer centered on the tube axial.

i crown and verify concentric my pistol muzzles for a reason. gases through a silencer will lurch fwd of the bullet during muzzle exit, the chamber(s) of the silencer can affect bullet trajectory. the OP has a valid point and i believe some designs affect trajectory more than others, especially when you get into the bigger rounds.

in the case of a mono-core with slated chamber divides "concentric" doesnt make much sense, but bullet stability is still of concern with every design, at least it is for the OP. for a sniper i think you need accuracy over silent.

[thecameraman79]

I don't have any form 1 cans nor plan to so I'm guessing all the commercial ones I have don't suffer from the issues you described from all the R&D put into them but it makes sense that a F1 can may have issues considering the lack of R&D put into some and the lack of abilities of the designer or even trying a new design that may not have worked out as well. I personally haven't seen it to be the case in all my commercial cans.

I know we are talking about a loss of accuracy in this post (group size). What I personally haven't seen was a rifle shoot worse groups with a can vs without it. Nor have I ever heard it mentioned that someone shot larger groups with the can on.
... but I highly doubt adding a suppressor would make a rifle less accurate unless you are getting a slight baffle strike.

There have been a few cases of people posting loss of accuracy. But Members have always been able to suggest corrections and they've worked. One time it was a non-concentric muzzle thread. Another, baffle clearance was too close and caused wobble. Yet again, 1 person needed to change the 1st 2 baffles from Ks to cones, or notched cones to unnotched b/c the assymetric high early pressure was inducing yaw.

So accuracy "can" suffer. Luckily unless the design is fundamentally flawed, it can be corrected.
Properly designed/mnfrd cans IMPROVE accuracy and limit the time that the projectile is subjected to muzzle blast. In atm, bullet perturbed by massive plume upon sudden release.

[silencer_kid]

I don't have any form 1 cans nor plan to so I'm guessing all the commercial ones I have don't suffer from the issues you described from all the R&D put into them but it makes sense that a F1 can may have issues considering the lack of R&D put into some and the lack of abilities of the designer or even trying a new design that may not have worked out as well. I personally haven't seen it to be the case in all my commercial cans.

why do people believe that a F1 build is inferior to any commercial item? its probably a large % of F1'a are better than the commercial item because F1 builders put in more time.

[Bendersquint]

why do people believe that a F1 build is inferior to any commercial item? its probably a large % of F1'a are better than the commercial item because F1 builders put in more time.

You sure about that?

[thecameraman79]

I didn't claim that all or even most are inferior. To say that a large % of F1 cans are better then a commercial can I would say is inaccurate too. What premise is it better? Sound suppression? Size? Weight? Back pressure? Tone? Cost? You have one chance as a F1 builder to make one. As a company that can design and test and redesign and test, etc etc would have the ability to improve on there designs and find a happy medium of all criteria. With a form 1 can you get one shot from all the internet research in the world and then hope in the end it turns out to be as good/better then a similar commercial can that has had a ton or research and testing put into it. It might be better in one or two or even 3 criteria but then be lacking in others so to say that a F1 is better would depend on what your goals are.

I have no doubt there are some very smart/competent builders right here reading this that can make some mighty fine cans. I also am sure there are a lot out there that aren't coming close to a commercial can in a lot of the criteria listed above and still had fun and enjoy there cans that they personally hand made. I am just referring to that any large suppressor company shouldn't be having issues with there suppressors causing inaccuracy unless there are other mitigating factors like nonconcentric threading, etc.

I don't have any form 1 cans nor plan to so I'm guessing all the commercial ones I have don't suffer from the issues you described from all the R&D put into them but it makes sense that a F1 can may have issues considering the lack of R&D put into some and the lack of abilities of the designer or even trying a new design that may not have worked out as well. I personally haven't seen it to be the case in all my commercial cans.

why do people believe that a F1 build is inferior to any commercial item? its probably a large % of F1'a are better than the commercial item because F1 builders put in more time.

[whiterussian1974]

Beyond that, the manufacturer can make its baffles concentric, and the unit very rigid to itself, but not relative to the barrel if the thread-job is done poorly or out of spec for the silencer itself.

huh? simple math tells us that if a cone/k/whatever baffle has OD that is perfectly round, and a perfectly round/concentric hole in center, and that part needs clearance into a tube, then the baffle center hole is no longer centered on the tube axial.

You're saying that if the Baffles' OD and ID are both concentric and perfectly centered; that math says that these aren't centered?

[TROOPER]

Beyond that, the manufacturer can make its baffles concentric, and the unit very rigid to itself, but not relative to the barrel if the thread-job is done poorly or out of spec for the silencer itself.

huh? simple math tells us that if a cone/k/whatever baffle has OD that is perfectly round, and a perfectly round/concentric hole in center, and that part needs clearance into a tube, then the baffle center hole is no longer centered on the tube axial.

You're saying that if the Baffles' OD and ID are both concentric and perfectly centered; that math says that these aren't centered?

(guessing) They can be centered to the can, and the can to the barrel, but perhaps not the barrel to the bore... in which case, even if there isn't a baffle-strike, there may be asymmetrical/non-concentric forces acting on the bullet as it zips through the baffles.

The whole thing is one big sht-show, and the level of nit-picking here -- justifiable though it may be -- is probably precisely why so few manufacturers put up data about accuracy for a silencer. After all, a less than perfect fit of a perfect silencer, will still be the equivalent of adding a new, improperly crowned muzzle.


--- ETA ----
On second-read, I don't know what the heck he's saying.

[whiterussian1974]

--- ETA ----
On second-read, I don't know what the heck he's saying.

That's how most of us feel reading many of his posts. Lots of Bravado and little valuable contribution.
It's like speaking w Trump. We're all Losers, have tiny "hands," aren't "classy," don't have bldgs w our names on them.

[curtistactical]

why do people believe that a F1 build is inferior to any commercial item? its probably a large % of F1'a are better than the commercial item because F1 builders put in more time.

You sure about that?

My thoughts exactly Bender.

[doubloon]

why do people believe that a F1 build is inferior to any commercial item? its probably a large % of F1'a are better than the commercial item because F1 builders put in more time.

You sure about that?

My thoughts exactly Bender.

Is there an age or height requirement for this board?

[TROOPER]

Beyond that, the manufacturer can make its baffles concentric, and the unit very rigid to itself, but not relative to the barrel if the thread-job is done poorly or out of spec for the silencer itself.

huh? simple math tells us that if a cone/k/whatever baffle has OD that is perfectly round, and a perfectly round/concentric hole in center, and that part needs clearance into a tube, then the baffle center hole is no longer centered on the tube axial.

You're saying that if the Baffles' OD and ID are both concentric and perfectly centered; that math says that these aren't centered?

Ok, I get it. He's saying that the baffle-stack -- talking about k-baffles here -- are laying in the tube, with a very small gap between the top of the stack and the inner 'ceiling' of the tube. Here's a hastily drawn crude illustration:


In the image, all four orange lines would be the same length, denoting that the bore through the baffles is perfectly round, and centered. However, since the baffle stack itself cannot be perfectly centered within the tube, due to the fact that the baffle stack outer-diameter must be smaller than the tube's inner-diameter, then the bore hole cannot be centered to the portion which screws on to the muzzle.

I have absurdly enlarged the gap between the baffle-stack and the sleeve in order to illustrate the point.

We'll call this type of induced misalignment "internal tolerance stacking error". This can be reduced by making the baffles absurdly tight relative to the sleeve so that a pusher tool and foul language is necessary for their removal or insertion. This can be avoided by simply using a monocore, since the monocore itself is "at one" with the adapter which screws onto the barrel threads.

This type of error is more theoretical than practical, since the tolerances of baffles-to-sleeve -- especially in non-user-serviceable units -- is very tight. But because it would still exert a minimal amount of uneven gas pressure to the bullet as it speeds through the baffle-stack, then such minimal lack-of-uniformity might manifest at maximum shooting distances.

It's quasi-interesting theory, but basically useless, since the amount of error induced by this absolutely pales next to a tenth-of-a-mile-per-hour side wind, or shooter-error, or barrel-whip, or uneven mass distribution in an individual bullet... etc. You could never remove enough other variables to ever test this particular one, since no self-respecting silencer manufacturer would ever produce a $1,000 rifle silencer which rattles when you pick it up; meaning that the baffle-stack-to-sleeve tolerance is already practically eliminated.

[silencer_kid]

You're saying that if the Baffles' OD and ID are both concentric and perfectly centered; that math says that these aren't centered?

no, thats not what i said, trooper illustrated it correctly. a 0.890 OD should slip into 0.890 ID tube, but thats not user friendly. a monocore might be bore aligned but their design seems like it would foster the least accuracy due to the non-symmetry of bore holes from chamber to chamber.

the argument of wind and user error doesnt count here, these things are tested in a indoor range (no wind) and in a rifle mount (no user error) so that you can isolate the accuracy of the device in question. we can then compare which one is best in terms of accuracy. thus you can derive a composite score based on dbSPL reduction + accuracy (or lack of) while being able to rank each metric.

[quiettime]

It's quasi-interesting theory, but basically useless, since the amount of error induced by this absolutely pales next to a tenth-of-a-mile-per-hour side wind, or shooter-error, or barrel-whip, or uneven mass distribution in an individual bullet...

Splitting hairs

[silencer_kid]

Could you elaborate? Is it because ODbaffle-stack <= IDsleeve?

Is that it?

basically yes. you could machine the baffle bore 0.001 off center to compensate and then index the baffles in the sleeve, but we have yet to see this done. its like building 20 million Camry's vs a few F1 race cars. mass production = lower price = mediocre product, the F1 of silencer = very quiet and very good accuracy = better than the Camry. to date, almost every commercial silencer produces about the same results.

i think OP's Q is still valid. -dbSPL aside (since they are all about the same), the better valure might be found with the item that has best accuracy with consistency.

[TROOPER]

It's quasi-interesting theory, but basically useless, since the amount of error induced by this absolutely pales next to a tenth-of-a-mile-per-hour side wind, or shooter-error, or barrel-whip, or uneven mass distribution in an individual bullet...

Splitting hairs

The whole thing is splitting hairs.

The rifle-rest and indoor-range aspects don't isolate as much as it seems like they would. Better than outdoor? Absolutely. But considering what we're trying to isolate here, I still suspect that the variances of shot-to-shot will be great enough to conceal the variances induced by this baffle-stack notion. Point in fact, the mating of the threads at the muzzle will suffer a similar and greater effect than that of the baffle-stack tolerance issue, since the muzzle threading will be so loose that it can be hand-removed... whereas baffle-stack tolerances can be made so tight that even after 'jail-breaking' a rifle can, the baffles will be exceedingly difficult to remove even with a tool. This indicates that the tolerance issues for the baffle-stack produce a lesser effect than the muzzle threading.

And even that would get lost on bullets that aren't machine-turned solid metal.

Again, this is just thought-exercise, and has no real-world application.

Also, monocores, with their non-concentric surfaces, will still deliver a symmetrical turbulence to the bullet, and that's a net-zero interference; equal and opposing forces.

As well to tabulate the effects of shooting during a solar eclipse given the moon's gravitational exertion.

[silencer_kid]

loose muzzle threads? hmmm, then better get a better thread spec and a machinist that can cut that spec accurately. 2A/2B vs 3A/3B , etc.