Commercial Suppresor Costs

[ljeffery101]

Can anyone please enlighten me why commercial manufactured suppressor have to cost so much money? I mean really...we are talking about a tube with machined baffles essentially. Material, setup and labor costs of production cannot be that much to justify such huge profit margins on these devices.

[mbogo]

Let's see: numerous Federal Firearms Licenses, Special Occupational Tax, ITAR fees, machinery, staff, insurances, payroll, rent, income & property taxes, zoning permits, materials, research & development, etc.

Moderators cost a lot less overseas (e.g., Finland, New Zealand, Switzerland, UK) but they are considered disposable items there, to be replaced every so often.

mbogo

[tf2addict]

They would probably cost less if more could be sold. But yeah it's kind of silly to pay $1000 (with tax) for a silencer to go on a $500 gun.

[mbogo]

...it's kind of silly to pay $1000 (with tax) for a silencer to go on a $500 gun.

I disagree - you can move suppressors to multiple guns with the correct threads and/or adapters.

Some rimfire cans can handle .22 Short, .22LR, .17HM2, .17HMR, .22WMR, 5.7x28, et al.

An Osprey 45 can go on a .38 Super, .380ACP, 9x19, .40S&W, .45 ACP, .300BLK (subsonic only), et al.

A can for 7.62x51 can go on rifles/pistols in 5.56mm, .300BLK, .30 Carbine, 7.62x39 (if baffles permit .312" bullets), et al.

mbogo

[JFettig]

Let's see: numerous Federal Firearms Licenses, Special Occupational Tax, ITAR fees, machinery, staff, insurances, payroll, rent, income & property taxes, zoning permits, materials, research & development, etc.

Moderators cost a lot less overseas (e.g., Finland, New Zealand, Switzerland, UK) but they are considered disposable items there, to be replaced every so often.

mbogo

Ever notice how all the cheaper suppressors are just knockoffs of other suppressors out there? R&D is very expensive.

[Fulmen]

Moderators cost a lot less overseas (e.g., Finland, New Zealand, Switzerland, UK) but they are considered disposable items there, to be replaced every so often.

Disposable (or at least limited lifespan) silencers represents the biggest marked, but you will also find a wide range of heavy-duty cans hers. And they tend to be cheaper than US counterparts. Some of this might have to do with limited US export, but the US prices does seem somewhat steep.

[mbogo]

Fulmen,


Where are you located? Are the liability and regulatory environments "harsh", as they are in the U.S.?

mbogo

[CanOfWhooppass]

I think here in the US due to the tax burden and time to get a stamp approved, many of the high end products are selling a lifetime repair and replacement as well. I'm curios how many of the European makers will replace a worn out 20 year old stack for free?

[T-Rex]

All reasonable answers, but why has no one said capitalism?

[whiterussian1974]

All reasonable answers, but why has no one said capitalism?

B/c that would tend to LOWER unit price. MOre Competition means more Supply.

Conversely, in EU where THIS PARTICULAR Product Class has fewer Regulations; (shockingly considering their love of Regs in Gen.) there is MORE Capitalism b/c of fewer Restrictions. Thus, more Marketplace Supply, greater # of Users increases Demand, increases Throughput of Turnover, equals lower Unit Price via Economies of Scale.

[whiterussian1974]

Fulmen,
Where are you located? Are the liability and regulatory environments "harsh", as they are in the U.S.?
mbogo

EU has Harsh Employment, Mnfrg and Product Reliability Regs. But they have Stricter Liability Limits and often must demonstrate Defect, rather than just Nuisance Suits resulting from Product Misuse.

[mbogo]

There is also a large markup for some brands. A suppressor I recently looked into was $1245 MSRP; someone was closing them out at $695 (a $550 difference).

As I doubt the dealer was going to take a loss, that is a significant markup.

mbogo

[Bendersquint]

There is also a large markup for some brands. A suppressor I recently looked into was $1245 MSRP; someone was closing them out at $695 (a $550 difference).

As I doubt the dealer was going to take a loss, that is a significant markup.

mbogo

Some brands do have more markup than others but even at that its not much at all.

There are sometimes reasons why the cans are so heavily discounted, but that can you saw was definitely an anomaly.

Which can was it? PM me if you need to.

[T-Rex]

All reasonable answers, but why has no one said capitalism?

B/c that would tend to LOWER unit price. MOre Competition means more Supply.

Conversely, in EU where THIS PARTICULAR Product Class has fewer Regulations; (shockingly considering their love of Regs in Gen.) there is MORE Capitalism b/c of fewer Restrictions. Thus, more Marketplace Supply, greater # of Users increases Demand, increases Throughput of Turnover, equals lower Unit Price via Economies of Scale.

I find this to more in line with free enterprise, rather than capitalism. Specifically due to the US regulations, restrictions, product warranties and general sensationalism of the item (within it's group).

But, I was more making light of the subject then a point.

[Fulmen]

EU has Harsh Employment, Mnfrg and Product Reliability Regs. But they have Stricter Liability Limits and often must demonstrate Defect, rather than just Nuisance Suits resulting from Product Misuse.

That pretty much describes it.

I don't know if US liability laws are to blame, I think the heavy regulation is a better candidate.

[whiterussian1974]

...there is MORE Capitalism b/c of fewer Restrictions. Thus, more Marketplace Supply, greater # of Users increases Demand, increases Throughput of Turnover, equals lower Unit Price via Economies of Scale.

I find this to more in line with free enterprise, rather than capitalism. Specifically due to the US regulations, restrictions, product warranties and general sensationalism of the item (within it's group).

But, I was more making light of the subject then a point.

I saw the wink. So I understood your light jab.

You are completely correct. It IS "more in line with free enterprise, rather than capitalism." I took that as a facet of same. But you're more accurate than I was.

I suppose that i didn't know to which part of Capitalism you ref'd. (Certainly not the Profit Motive! Gasp! )
B/c the Profit Motive exists there too.

[quiettime]

. Material, setup and labor costs of production cannot be that much to justify such huge profit margins on these devices.

Priced a CNC center lately? How about a building to house it.

Cost of labor involves more than just employee salary.

Then there's advertising and maybe a salesperson

Don't forget you may need an attorney at some point to deal with the gov.

Thennnn there's warranty for Bubba who f's up his can and will murder you on the internet if you don't take care e of him.

Commercial cans are a bargain for what you get, and the top manufacturers drive the performance of the industry

[ljeffery101]

I totally understand the whole manufacturing overhead and economies of scale issue. I am well versed in manufacturing, machining, raw material costs, factories, overhead, etc. I also understand capitalized costs, labor burden etc and margins. That said, in a free market system, it seems that a small shop with a talented few individuals could turn out a marketable product that is both high quality, and undercuts the US competition by selling at much lower price points while still maintaining a viable profit margin and capturing a bigger market share.

Being that people can legally purchase and own a suppressor, albeit jumping through the paperwork and paying the fees (taxes) it seems the potential market could be larger if not for the fact that at such costs, many would be buyers are priced out of owning such suppressors.

[quiettime]

...it seems that a small shop with a talented few individuals could turn out a marketable product that is both high quality, and undercuts the US competition by selling at much lower price points while still maintaining a viable profit margin and capturing a bigger market share...

Well there are some more affordable cans out there like the Palmetto State cans and YHM, but they all give up something to meet the cost.

Griffin Armament seems to have a very good balance of price point and performance, often out-performing many more expensive cans.

But a "small shop with a few talented individuals" is up against the very economies of scale you say you intimately understand. Unless they steal other larger companies patented designs and put in tons of hours for free.

How much is the least expensive production-capable lathe? How many cans do you have to make and actually sell just to absorb that cost, let alone rent, electric, materials, ITAR tax etc etc etc.

We're in the Golden Age of suppressors; cans that are light years ahead of decades-ago designs which probably cost a fraction of those when inflation is factored in.

[Bendersquint]

Being that people can legally purchase and own a suppressor, albeit jumping through the paperwork and paying the fees (taxes) it seems the potential market could be larger if not for the fact that at such costs, many would be buyers are priced out of owning such suppressors.

There are cans for ALL budgets out there. The more you spend the more it offers through performance, warranty, capability etc.

In my experience there are far more people that say they want to buy cans than actually ever do. Everyone talks, few act on it.

[propeine]

I blame ITAR and insurance mostly.

Total in materials for my 3 form 1s
308 - about 250
22lr - about 100
9mm - about 200

They are all titanium. My time isn't really relevant but if I paid myself 20/hr I would be just under commercial costs on all but the 308. However I'm working on a manual machine not CNC.

ITAR - 1500/yr
FFL - 500 every 3 I think?
Insurance ??

So lets say I'm a small time guy who wants to do custom suppressors. Lets say I want to sell one a month because I'm keeping my day job. I'm going to use my existing manual lathe/mill since I don't expect to drop 5k on a used machining center (lets be honest K baffles and clipped cones aren't exactly rocket science nor require a brand new HAAS). At that volume, my suppressors cost 140 dollars more each than what I have in labor and material. Assuming I need to be competitive, and it takes me 10 hours to make one (easy math reasons), my 20/hr is now 6/hr. Or I have to convince you that my "homebuilt" suppressor is 140 dollars more valuable than a commercial version. On top of that, lets say the borough I live in doesn't allow ANY home based businesses. So now I have to rent space. The cost of monthly rent just got added to your custom suppressor. All of the above presumes that I never have to warranty anything either. Assumes I'm never sued for bubba filling a 308 case with blue dot and blowing his face off.

There is no good way for a small time guy to do it which minimizes competition. I could go make more money flipping burgers than selling one a month and probably even 2 a month. Shops producing 1000s a year only have to charge .50 cents extra each or 1.00 etc to cover these fixed costs which isn't even a drop in the bucket.

[Grounded]

You have your manufacturing costs which include material, G&A and OH, Then your profit for future designs and work, that goes to a distributor who marks it up and then to a retailer that marks it up again. Thats your typical breakdown...

[Bendersquint]

I blame ITAR and insurance mostly.

Total in materials for my 3 form 1s
308 - about 250
22lr - about 100
9mm - about 200

They are all titanium. My time isn't really relevant but if I paid myself 20/hr I would be just under commercial costs on all but the 308. However I'm working on a manual machine not CNC.

ITAR - 1500/yr
FFL - 500 every 3 I think?
Insurance ??

So lets say I'm a small time guy who wants to do custom suppressors. Lets say I want to sell one a month because I'm keeping my day job. I'm going to use my existing manual lathe/mill since I don't expect to drop 5k on a used machining center (lets be honest K baffles and clipped cones aren't exactly rocket science nor require a brand new HAAS). At that volume, my suppressors cost 140 dollars more each than what I have in labor and material. Assuming I need to be competitive, and it takes me 10 hours to make one (easy math reasons), my 20/hr is now 6/hr. Or I have to convince you that my "homebuilt" suppressor is 140 dollars more valuable than a commercial version. On top of that, lets say the borough I live in doesn't allow ANY home based businesses. So now I have to rent space. The cost of monthly rent just got added to your custom suppressor. All of the above presumes that I never have to warranty anything either. Assumes I'm never sued for bubba filling a 308 case with blue dot and blowing his face off.

There is no good way for a small time guy to do it which minimizes competition. I could go make more money flipping burgers than selling one a month and probably even 2 a month. Shops producing 1000s a year only have to charge .50 cents extra each or 1.00 etc to cover these fixed costs which isn't even a drop in the bucket.

The yearly you listed are a bit low and you forgot the yearly SOT stamp.

Where are.you finding 5k machining centers, i need.to pick up a few!

[JFettig]

I don't think that's what he said.. but my shop rate is no where near $20/hr... add a 1 in front of it then we're getting close

[propeine]

I blame ITAR and insurance mostly.

Total in materials for my 3 form 1s
308 - about 250
22lr - about 100
9mm - about 200

They are all titanium. My time isn't really relevant but if I paid myself 20/hr I would be just under commercial costs on all but the 308. However I'm working on a manual machine not CNC.

ITAR - 1500/yr
FFL - 500 every 3 I think?
Insurance ??

So lets say I'm a small time guy who wants to do custom suppressors. Lets say I want to sell one a month because I'm keeping my day job. I'm going to use my existing manual lathe/mill since I don't expect to drop 5k on a used machining center (lets be honest K baffles and clipped cones aren't exactly rocket science nor require a brand new HAAS). At that volume, my suppressors cost 140 dollars more each than what I have in labor and material. Assuming I need to be competitive, and it takes me 10 hours to make one (easy math reasons), my 20/hr is now 6/hr. Or I have to convince you that my "homebuilt" suppressor is 140 dollars more valuable than a commercial version. On top of that, lets say the borough I live in doesn't allow ANY home based businesses. So now I have to rent space. The cost of monthly rent just got added to your custom suppressor. All of the above presumes that I never have to warranty anything either. Assumes I'm never sued for bubba filling a 308 case with blue dot and blowing his face off.

There is no good way for a small time guy to do it which minimizes competition. I could go make more money flipping burgers than selling one a month and probably even 2 a month. Shops producing 1000s a year only have to charge .50 cents extra each or 1.00 etc to cover these fixed costs which isn't even a drop in the bucket.

The yearly you listed are a bit low and you forgot the yearly SOT stamp.

Where are.you finding 5k machining centers, i need.to pick up a few!

Craigslist. Older conversational CNC go cheap around here for whatever reason. I know of 2 being used in production for non firearm related parts right now that were bought for 5k and 8k respectively. The cheaper one is the nicer machine too.