Why didn't I think of this?

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John A.
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Why didn't I think of this?

Post by John A. » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:49 pm

A black powder rifle is not considered a firearm.

They are not subject to regulation in any of the states and are classified as antiques.

This means that black powder guns can be ordered through the mail and without a background check being necessary.

The minds at silencerco have really impressed me with the release of the Maxim 50. Pretty ingenious if you ask me. I'm sure that it will make some of the antigunners squirm.

Now I need to start looking around for a black powder rifle.

https://www.ammoland.com/2017/09/silenc ... z4t8x4YH9V

https://www.americanrifleman.org/ar...- ... zleloader/


videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA8rSssvTSA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8j7D-3yQWc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIyi8ua4mGk
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Elkins45
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by Elkins45 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:02 pm

Actually I did think of it a couple of years ago. I just never got around to composing a letter to ATF because I didn't have the time to pursue it.

If you read their letter from ATF a couple of things jump out:

1. They make note of the adhesive used to secure the end cap of the sample as not being an approved method. This would imply a maker would have to weld the can shut.

2. They make a comment about someone potentially being involved in the making of a silencer before it is attached. This makes me think that to be truly compliant a home maker would have to do things in a very precise order. Probably, they would tell you the tube needs to be permanently affixed before inserting unbored baffles, then the endcap welded on, and only then could the baffles be bored. If the baffles or endcap were bored before being permenantly attached you would be guilty of making a silencer part.

It's a shame they built it on a cheapo Traditions rifle. A nice T/C wouldn't cost much more.

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fishman
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by fishman » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:04 pm

You beat me to it, by 12 minutes.

What a breakthrough!

Now californiains can own Suppressors*

Does the can have to be welded shut? Can airgun silencers have removable baffles?
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fishman
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by fishman » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:09 pm

Now here's a question. A TC encore is legally a firearm, as it can have centerfire barrels attached to it. Would putting an integrally silenced muzzle loader barrel onto an encore constitute silencing a firearm?
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Elkins45
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by Elkins45 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:27 pm

fishman wrote:Now here's a question. A TC encore is legally a firearm, as it can have centerfire barrels attached to it. Would putting an integrally silenced muzzle loader barrel onto an encore constitute silencing a firearm?
I used to own an Encore that was purchased new with only the 50 caliber ML barrel. I had to complete a 4473 when I bought it. I'm thinking I wouldn't want to be the test case.

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John A.
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by John A. » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:35 pm

They are using the Vortek black powder rifles.

https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/category/Vortek

The muzzle device is welded onto the black powder barrel.

And from the videos, looks like a sealed can.
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doubloon
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by doubloon » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:58 pm

John A. wrote:A black powder rifle is not considered a firearm.

They are not subject to regulation in any of the states and are classified as antiques.
...
One older thread on the topic, there are older ones but I'm too lazy to find them.

viewtopic.php?t=68448
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
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ick
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by ick » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:05 pm

What is the opinion of the sound reduction?
-----
Ick

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John A.
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by John A. » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:13 pm

It's really hard to tell.

I also don't know the velocity of the ball or sabot or whatever they were using either.
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fishman
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by fishman » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:50 pm

Elkins45 wrote:
fishman wrote:Now here's a question. A TC encore is legally a firearm, as it can have centerfire barrels attached to it. Would putting an integrally silenced muzzle loader barrel onto an encore constitute silencing a firearm?
I used to own an Encore that was purchased new with only the 50 caliber ML barrel. I had to complete a 4473 when I bought it. I'm thinking I wouldn't want to be the test case.
The GCA says that a muzzleloader made from a firearm receiver is still a firearm. No silenced encore for me :( at least not without a stamp
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by TOOL1075 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:12 pm

I saw this today and was pretty surprised - I hadn't thought of it!

Interesting times right now. After reading that internal ATF whitepaper by that lone ATF employee and seeing the reasonable opinions on silencers... and seeing stuff like this.... it's very interesting. Then, however, you have the political ATF folks in the recent SHARE hearing that were bonkers.

Important questions:
  • I don't muzzle load. Does it suck that bad?
    What's this thing sound like?
    Which one of you nuts are buying one first? :lol:
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Mageever
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by Mageever » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:56 pm

Do muzzle loader hunters wear flat brim hats? Asking for a friend.

Elkins45
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by Elkins45 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:09 pm

I just wish they hadn't welded it to the end of a $99 rifle. If I'm going to drop a grand on a muzzle loader I would prefer it be a good one.

I predict they will sell a bunch of them, and then three months later at least half will be on a race to the bottom on the resale market. On the bright side, maybe this will be the thing that puts the Savage smokeless muzzleloader back into production. This idea just begs for the ability to use a truly non-corrosive powder.

thecameraman79
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by thecameraman79 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:07 am

Quoted at 139 db muzzle average

https://silencerco.com/maxim50/
ick wrote:What is the opinion of the sound reduction?

ranb
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by ranb » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:52 am

Don't some states have different (from the feds) definitions for firearms and silencers? Would this gun be legal in CA and NJ?

Ranb
SilencerTalk was a place I could disccuss making registered silencers without being told I was a criminal. That is no longer true. http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=132&t=99273

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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by hyrulejedi86 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:54 am

I am consistantly impressed by SilencerCo's innovation and frankly if nothing else it's a big middle finger to states like California. At least until they decide that they are going to ban those too.

On another thought, this is the 2nd Maxim product, and the second integral product. I'm seeing a pattern for the Maxim line. Possibly a whole series of Maxim products, all integral in the future.

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fishman
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by fishman » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:07 am

ranb wrote:Don't some states have different (from the feds) definitions for firearms and silencers? Would this gun be legal in CA and NJ?

Ranb
their website says 50 state legal
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John A.
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by John A. » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:29 am

Because black powder (antique) arms are legal in all 50 states, and the way the federal law reads.

It is the same reason why you can have a "muffler" on an airgun without regulation.
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Elkins45
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by Elkins45 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:45 am

ranb wrote:Don't some states have different (from the feds) definitions for firearms and silencers? Would this gun be legal in CA and NJ?

Ranb
Some states won't allow it to be mailed directly to your house but I don't think antique muzzle loading guns are banned anywhere.

If they make a silenced cap lock revolver they would probably sell a gazillion of them! You could order them from Cabela's!

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Todd Is
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by Todd Is » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:55 pm

ATF will probably backtrack on this.....A silencer is/in of itself considered a firearm, and as such, to be serialized, registered and to go thru all the hoopla regardless to whatever it is mounted on. If not, I should be able to bypass all the paperwork if I was to say, buy a Bowers 50 can just for the sole purpose of welding it on to a BP rifle/ or a Daisy Red Ryder if I choose.

Yes I know I'm wrong and a naysayer, yada yada....the ATF probably had that deer in the headlight look when Silencerco asserted its legality, rest assured though, ATF got their think tank in full gear on this one.

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John A.
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by John A. » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:44 pm

Airgun silencers/mufflers are not considered firearms.

They're typically welded and sealed too.
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fishman
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by fishman » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:03 pm

Todd Is wrote:ATF will probably backtrack on this.....A silencer is/in of itself considered a firearm, and as such, to be serialized, registered and to go thru all the hoopla regardless to whatever it is mounted on. If not, I should be able to bypass all the paperwork if I was to say, buy a Bowers 50 can just for the sole purpose of welding it on to a BP rifle/ or a Daisy Red Ryder if I choose.

Yes I know I'm wrong and a naysayer, yada yada....the ATF probably had that deer in the headlight look when Silencerco asserted its legality, rest assured though, ATF got their think tank in full gear on this one.
Youre almost right.

FIREARM silencers are themselves firearms, but silencers for any other device are not. Car mufflers, airgun /paintball silencers, musical instrument mutes, pet muzzles, sound deadening foam, compressed air discharge silencers --
and yes -- even muzzleloader silencers aren't firearms. This is because they aren't deigned to and/or can't silence firearms.

The atf has some wonky rulings, but the law is fairly cut and dry here.
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by blkcloud » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:46 am

So.. can someone make one of these,weld it to a ml and not have to buy the tax stamp?

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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by T-Rex » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:34 am

The problem will really come to state level, if ATF's letter sticks. Muzzleloaders are firearms, in some states.
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Todd Is
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Re: Why didn't I think of this?

Post by Todd Is » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:07 pm

I could cut my ML barrel to 14" with no restrictions?

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