Why didn't I think of this?

[hardcase]

I have an older TC cap & ball muzzle loader 50 cal rifle so obviously any type of silencer would not be practical for this type of gun. I have always shot real black powder. Problem I see is cleaning. I can get about 7-8 shots before it needs cleaning enough to get a ball in. Getting a ball stuck is a hassle to deal with.

As far as legal to sell, Midway sells cap and ball revolvers, no permit needed in most states. The following seems like really stretching the law but looks legal. That being a replacement conversion for centerfire cartridges. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/19731 ... lt-6-round

[T-Rex]

I don't know the inner workings of this new Maxim50, but I would assume a monocore, removed from the front, would make for super easy cleaning. Unthread endcap, remove core, soak in hot water, brush if necessary, assemble.

I would think that conversion kit would instantly make your black powder gun a "firearm". Being that the law states "is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition".

[fishman]

It's fully welded. If any part came off, it would be considered a silencer part.

[T-Rex]

It's fully welded. If any part came off, it would be considered a silencer part.

I don't believe this to be true. I think the only reason they welded it on was so that no dumbshit tried to put it on his 50 Beowulf upper and have an illegal silencer.

I'd have to say reason the ATF mentioned the word "attached" is because they were specifically referencing the example given to them. They do this in pretty much every letter and it makes legal sense. The more explicit they are, with their determination, the better it is for everyone.

Nothing about the suppressor being attached changes the fact that the muzzleloader is not a firearm and, therefore, can't construe the device as a silencer.

[doubloon]

If the whole thing was made removable I think you might have a problem. I'd be comfortable with someone else jailbreaking theirs for cleaning.

[fishman]

If the whole thing was made removable I think you might have a problem. I'd be comfortable with someone else jailbreaking theirs for cleaning.

Yeah, YOUD be ok with it. So would I. I don't think the ATF will be. There's already specific verbiage about airgun silencers not being at all removable. This is no different.

[doubloon]

...
Yeah, ...

[Elkins45]

It's fully welded. If any part came off, it would be considered a silencer part.

This.

If it were kosher with ATF to have a removable core then Silencerco would have been smart enough to make that happen. Read the ATF letter and you can see they aren't even happy with the endcap being held in place with Locktite or Rockset.

They can only get away with this because they aren't selling silencer parts. Take out the core and you are holding an untaxed silencer part in your hand. Remember, the only reason this thing isn't a silencer is because it isn't and can't be attached to a device that is a "firearm" according to Federal law. Five minutes with a hacksaw and you're holding a felony in your hand.

This is why I really wish this thing was on a smokeless gun.

[doubloon]

... There's already specific verbiage about airgun silencers not being at all removable. ...

The tube and baffles on the Benjamin Marauder are removable.

[John A.]

Is it more quiet with the little silencer? Or is it there more for marketing purposes to seperate more money from you at the cash register?

[fishman]

... There's already specific verbiage about airgun silencers not being at all removable. ...

The tube and baffles on the Benjamin Marauder are removable.

I'm sure the atf could crack down on that if they wanted to.

[togeneral99]

So, who is going to build one first?

Seems to me if you followed a specific order you would be in the clear.

1) Buy the gun and thread the end
2) Machine a "golf ball lanucher" and pin that to the end of it
3) Machine a series of cones to fit into the "Launcher" but the cones dont have a center hole
4) Put cones into launcher and weld on endcap - gun is now unfireable
5) Drill center hole through cone stack

You now have an intergrally suppressed muzzle loader

Has anyone consulted with the ATF on building one in this order?

[Hannibalbarca]

Should have made it 458 caliber, smokeless, and breach loading and able to use a carriage(a blank).
What I mean by the last part is you open up the action like a break open shotgun, put the projectile into the chamber. Behind the barrel there's a second break and or opening and this is where a blank sort of carridge would go.
I'm not sure if this would be safe pressure wise but it would be legal as it defines centerfire ammo as fixed and simply design it in a way that a fixed ammo with the projectile in the cartridge could not be used.

[BroncoVol74]

Why couldn't the monocore/baffles be welded to the end of the barrel as a muzzle brake, then the tube able to screw on over the end? Just like so many other integrated barrels.

[fishman]

Why couldn't the monocore/baffles be welded to the end of the barrel as a muzzle brake, then the tube able to screw on over the end? Just like so many other integrated barrels.

Once you remove the tube, it's arguably an unregistered silencer part. It's certainly a gray area worth avoiding.

[doubloon]

Wasn't this the basis of the Sig MPX lawsuit?

[T-Rex]

How about this?
Weld the core to the bbl with a removable tube, but:
The front of the core has a lip equal to the OD of the so it can't slide forward (the tube)
The rear of the core is threaded with a removable nut.
The nut unthreads and the tube slides rearward, still over the bbl.
No way to use on another firearm or in other configuration. Yet, the core can easily be cleaned.

Not ideal, but very doable.

Wasn't this the basis of the Sig MPX lawsuit?

Like I've said many times, Sig got screwed and it was in fact a muzzle brake. Even ATF testing showed reduction to felt recoil and none to sound.

"any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication" Right there!

[fishman]

I've had the same idea trex, I actually thought about patenting it. That should work. It would have to not by able to slide off the barrel the other way either, even with the barrel removed.

[doubloon]

...
"any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication" Right there!

You left out the "and", I'm pretty sure it's a bunch of the words before the "and" that mattered.

[T-Rex]

What I quoted is the last text in the definition.

"and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler,"

This is before. Notice the comma at the end? This is a reason Sig lost. Their design resembled a monocore, eventhough it didn't act like one and was in an alternative design.

The fact it didn't reduce sound and the "only", from my quoted text, should have been enough to save them.

ATF gonna ATF

[doubloon]

What I quoted is the last text in the definition.
...

I realize the words are from the definition.

So you're saying if I were to make some K baffles with divots in the end to hold cigars like the Liberty cigar stand which just happen to functionally suppress a firearm if you slide them into my wink, wink "silencer sold separately" that is an empty tube with no baffles then my cigar holders shouldn't be considered silencers or silencer parts either?

Or a monocore that also serves as a nut cracker or a cheese grater?

So tubes that also serve as solvent traps are not "only" for silencer use and therefore not silencers.

And if my tube was multipurpose, like convenient storage for my cigar holders, then it shouldn't be a silencer either.

I like the way you think, I just don't see how it's any more arbitrary than any other ATF ruling.

[T-Rex]

Believe me, I understand where you're going. I think the best way to answer your questions would be to reference this guy:





He was arrested and charged. He won his case and these are still being sold on ebay. Actually, there are several sellers with different variations.





Fully bored and threaded "monocore" under the guise of muzzle brake. I'm sure a "cigar holder" would pass the same sniff test.

ATF be all like

[doubloon]

...
ATF be all like