Why didn't I think of this?

[John A.]

A black powder rifle is not considered a firearm.

They are not subject to regulation in any of the states and are classified as antiques.

This means that black powder guns can be ordered through the mail and without a background check being necessary.

The minds at silencerco have really impressed me with the release of the Maxim 50. Pretty ingenious if you ask me. I'm sure that it will make some of the antigunners squirm.

Now I need to start looking around for a black powder rifle.

https://www.ammoland.com/2017/09/silenc ... z4t8x4YH9V

https://www.americanrifleman.org/ar...- ... zleloader/


videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA8rSssvTSA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8j7D-3yQWc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIyi8ua4mGk

[Elkins45]

Actually I did think of it a couple of years ago. I just never got around to composing a letter to ATF because I didn't have the time to pursue it.

If you read their letter from ATF a couple of things jump out:

1. They make note of the adhesive used to secure the end cap of the sample as not being an approved method. This would imply a maker would have to weld the can shut.

2. They make a comment about someone potentially being involved in the making of a silencer before it is attached. This makes me think that to be truly compliant a home maker would have to do things in a very precise order. Probably, they would tell you the tube needs to be permanently affixed before inserting unbored baffles, then the endcap welded on, and only then could the baffles be bored. If the baffles or endcap were bored before being permenantly attached you would be guilty of making a silencer part.

It's a shame they built it on a cheapo Traditions rifle. A nice T/C wouldn't cost much more.

[fishman]

You beat me to it, by 12 minutes.

What a breakthrough!

Now californiains can own Suppressors*

Does the can have to be welded shut? Can airgun silencers have removable baffles?

[fishman]

Now here's a question. A TC encore is legally a firearm, as it can have centerfire barrels attached to it. Would putting an integrally silenced muzzle loader barrel onto an encore constitute silencing a firearm?

[Elkins45]

Now here's a question. A TC encore is legally a firearm, as it can have centerfire barrels attached to it. Would putting an integrally silenced muzzle loader barrel onto an encore constitute silencing a firearm?

I used to own an Encore that was purchased new with only the 50 caliber ML barrel. I had to complete a 4473 when I bought it. I'm thinking I wouldn't want to be the test case.

[John A.]

They are using the Vortek black powder rifles.

https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/category/Vortek

The muzzle device is welded onto the black powder barrel.

And from the videos, looks like a sealed can.

[doubloon]

A black powder rifle is not considered a firearm.

They are not subject to regulation in any of the states and are classified as antiques.
...

One older thread on the topic, there are older ones but I'm too lazy to find them.

viewtopic.php?t=68448

[ick]

What is the opinion of the sound reduction?

[John A.]

It's really hard to tell.

I also don't know the velocity of the ball or sabot or whatever they were using either.

[fishman]

Now here's a question. A TC encore is legally a firearm, as it can have centerfire barrels attached to it. Would putting an integrally silenced muzzle loader barrel onto an encore constitute silencing a firearm?

I used to own an Encore that was purchased new with only the 50 caliber ML barrel. I had to complete a 4473 when I bought it. I'm thinking I wouldn't want to be the test case.

The GCA says that a muzzleloader made from a firearm receiver is still a firearm. No silenced encore for me at least not without a stamp

[TOOL1075]

I saw this today and was pretty surprised - I hadn't thought of it!

Interesting times right now. After reading that internal ATF whitepaper by that lone ATF employee and seeing the reasonable opinions on silencers... and seeing stuff like this.... it's very interesting. Then, however, you have the political ATF folks in the recent SHARE hearing that were bonkers.

Important questions:

• I don't muzzle load. Does it suck that bad?
  What's this thing sound like?
  Which one of you nuts are buying one first?

[Mageever]

Do muzzle loader hunters wear flat brim hats? Asking for a friend.

[Elkins45]

I just wish they hadn't welded it to the end of a $99 rifle. If I'm going to drop a grand on a muzzle loader I would prefer it be a good one.

I predict they will sell a bunch of them, and then three months later at least half will be on a race to the bottom on the resale market. On the bright side, maybe this will be the thing that puts the Savage smokeless muzzleloader back into production. This idea just begs for the ability to use a truly non-corrosive powder.

[thecameraman79]

Quoted at 139 db muzzle average

https://silencerco.com/maxim50/

What is the opinion of the sound reduction?

[ranb]

Don't some states have different (from the feds) definitions for firearms and silencers? Would this gun be legal in CA and NJ?

Ranb

[hyrulejedi86]

I am consistantly impressed by SilencerCo's innovation and frankly if nothing else it's a big middle finger to states like California. At least until they decide that they are going to ban those too.

On another thought, this is the 2nd Maxim product, and the second integral product. I'm seeing a pattern for the Maxim line. Possibly a whole series of Maxim products, all integral in the future.

[fishman]

Don't some states have different (from the feds) definitions for firearms and silencers? Would this gun be legal in CA and NJ?

Ranb

their website says 50 state legal

[John A.]

Because black powder (antique) arms are legal in all 50 states, and the way the federal law reads.

It is the same reason why you can have a "muffler" on an airgun without regulation.

[Elkins45]

Don't some states have different (from the feds) definitions for firearms and silencers? Would this gun be legal in CA and NJ?

Ranb

Some states won't allow it to be mailed directly to your house but I don't think antique muzzle loading guns are banned anywhere.

If they make a silenced cap lock revolver they would probably sell a gazillion of them! You could order them from Cabela's!

[Todd Is]

ATF will probably backtrack on this.....A silencer is/in of itself considered a firearm, and as such, to be serialized, registered and to go thru all the hoopla regardless to whatever it is mounted on. If not, I should be able to bypass all the paperwork if I was to say, buy a Bowers 50 can just for the sole purpose of welding it on to a BP rifle/ or a Daisy Red Ryder if I choose.

Yes I know I'm wrong and a naysayer, yada yada....the ATF probably had that deer in the headlight look when Silencerco asserted its legality, rest assured though, ATF got their think tank in full gear on this one.

[John A.]

Airgun silencers/mufflers are not considered firearms.

They're typically welded and sealed too.

[fishman]

ATF will probably backtrack on this.....A silencer is/in of itself considered a firearm, and as such, to be serialized, registered and to go thru all the hoopla regardless to whatever it is mounted on. If not, I should be able to bypass all the paperwork if I was to say, buy a Bowers 50 can just for the sole purpose of welding it on to a BP rifle/ or a Daisy Red Ryder if I choose.

Yes I know I'm wrong and a naysayer, yada yada....the ATF probably had that deer in the headlight look when Silencerco asserted its legality, rest assured though, ATF got their think tank in full gear on this one.

Youre almost right.

FIREARM silencers are themselves firearms, but silencers for any other device are not. Car mufflers, airgun /paintball silencers, musical instrument mutes, pet muzzles, sound deadening foam, compressed air discharge silencers --
and yes -- even muzzleloader silencers aren't firearms. This is because they aren't deigned to and/or can't silence firearms.

The atf has some wonky rulings, but the law is fairly cut and dry here.

[blkcloud]

So.. can someone make one of these,weld it to a ml and not have to buy the tax stamp?

[T-Rex]

The problem will really come to state level, if ATF's letter sticks. Muzzleloaders are firearms, in some states.

[Todd Is]

I could cut my ML barrel to 14" with no restrictions?