Why are there not more intregal pistols?

General silencer discussion. If you want to talk about a specific silenced rifle or pistol, it is best to do that in the rifle or pistol section for that brand.

All NFA laws apply.

Moderators: mpallett, mr fixit, bakerjw, renegade

User avatar
ArevaloSOCOM
Silencertalk Goon Squad
Posts: 17511
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 1:22 am
Location: London, England
Contact:

Post by ArevaloSOCOM »

Simon wrote:
Davo5o wrote:Post a picture of the gun your talking about if you could please?

I thought someone had built a shroud over a revolver and done that, or maybe that russian auto revolver??? A revolver wouldn't leave behind shells either, but would be slower on the reload. I'd love to see a integral auto for sure, much easier to holster and what not.
There i sonly one revolver that can be silenced - the Belgian / Russian Nagant 1895 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagant_M1895). It used a special device that closed the gap between cylinder and barrel and therefor could be effectively silenced. These revolvers where used by the Russian and early Soviet intelligence services and to a small extend also by the VC.
That's cool bu i know KAC make a revolver that is suppressed becasue Kevin posted pic a while back.

Neat info on tha nagant though.
NFAtalk.org
User avatar
Poacher
Elite Industry Professional
Posts: 1867
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:53 pm
Location: Berryville, AR
Contact:

Post by Poacher »

Hey Conqueror,

Great idea on the beefed up MKII in 9mm, The first thing I thought of when I read this post.

Then I thought it would add volume for a more quite suppressor if it was made like the Black Box style suppressor profile in the front with enough barrel to get the round going just under supersonic and it could be ported past that if it needed more to stabilize the heavy 9mm bullet like a 158 grain.

Great post ArevaloSOCOM!!! Even though you are a drunk, gun toten, open carrying black guy with braided hair....... :wink:
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."-- Vince Lombardi

Director of Training & Special Initiatives
Nighthawk Custom
[email protected]
877-268-4867
User avatar
cmdecker
Elite Member
Posts: 1227
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:26 pm
Location: Mississippi

Post by cmdecker »

FFL/SOT

AAC, KAC, and SWR Dealer
User avatar
ArevaloSOCOM
Silencertalk Goon Squad
Posts: 17511
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 1:22 am
Location: London, England
Contact:

Post by ArevaloSOCOM »

LOL.

Thanks Poacher.

:lol:

A MKII type pistol in 9mm would be perfect IMHO.
NFAtalk.org
User avatar
Mongo
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4168
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:27 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Mongo »

ArevaloSOCOM wrote:LOL.

Thanks Poacher.

:lol:

A MKII type pistol in 9mm would be perfect IMHO.
I think its called a Luger :P
Firearms Engineer for hire on piece work basis.
No job is too expensive :)
http://weaponblueprints.com/
RatPatrol
Member
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:54 pm
Location: Virginia

Post by RatPatrol »

Howabout if someone built an integral around a Walther P-38? I have not handled one in a while, but as I recall they are fixed barrel and easy to come by. Hmmm....might want to talk to one of the guys who builds integrals.
User avatar
stymie
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1679
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 4:45 pm

NOT FIXED

Post by stymie »

RatPatrol wrote:Howabout if someone built an integral around a Walther P-38? I have not handled one in a while, but as I recall they are fixed barrel and easy to come by. Hmmm....might want to talk to one of the guys who builds integrals.
Locked breech action is similar to a Beretta M9
"My GOD can kick your god's ass!"
User avatar
Davo5o
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 4077
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 9:44 pm
Location: MONTANA

Post by Davo5o »

RatPatrol wrote:Howabout if someone built an integral around a Walther P-38? I have not handled one in a while, but as I recall they are fixed barrel and easy to come by. Hmmm....might want to talk to one of the guys who builds integrals.
Thank you, that is the exact gun for the perfect host, and still cheap on gun broker. This could possibly be a potential as a form 1 build?? I'm getting a P38 regardless and quickly. How soon I get it built, might be another issue all together. I agree seeing how much someone else would charge might be a good idea before I started messing something up. Could you imagine a Integral Black box 9mm design on a P38, droooool. Thanks again, perfect host!!

Why couldn't I just cut the barrel back just long enough to thread it .5/28, and then just screw on my can? Maybe I'll buy two and do that with the first one and save the other for an integral later? Or maybe just spend my money on a new G27 and G20 and be happy with the can I have and just get a couple nice new hosts. Sorry to diverge.
User avatar
stymie
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1679
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 4:45 pm

Post by stymie »

When the P.38 fires, the barrel & slide move back in unison for a short distance until the locking mechanism releases thus allowing the slide to continue its journey as the pressure drops. This is not as ideal as a fixed barrel, but sure beats the complication of a tilting barrel. The barrel remains parallel to the frame during the entire cycle.

Most of the cheap P.38 Post War pistols (P.1s) do not have a monolithic barrel. They have a pressed & pinned steel sleeve/ liner with rifling, making threading problematic at times.
"My GOD can kick your god's ass!"
Golovko
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:10 am

Re: Why are there not more intregal pistols?

Post by Golovko »

ArevaloSOCOM wrote:Why aren't there other calibers?

Say 9mm or 45 in a pistol form?

The reason I ask is that i just got done watching "Layer cake" and they use a Chinese 67 type pistol, it's a 9mm intregal suppresed handgun and it hit me.

Why don't we have that?

I've seen many MKII or whateverer versions of 22lr. pistols, but other than that the MP5SD is the only other non-22lr intregally suppressed I can think of.

I have a USPSD + Evo9 combo and it's pretty freaking long, I'm not complaining, but it makes sense.

I'll soon hope to have a MK23 + KAC can and it's even longer.......

Why no intregal pistols calibers besides 22lr????????
Because while anyone (legally authorized) can turn a Ruger Mk. II barrel into a silencer, most pistol designs do not lend themselves well to integral designs. Even fixed barreled pistols like the Walther would not be good candidates because the slide would no longer be removable, so for the most part modifying an existing firearm is out of the question. At the very least a manufacturer would have to rebuild a significant fraction of a pistol--if not build one entirely from the ground up. Absent a big military contract, that manufacturer would have to rely on sales to the civilian community. The civilian market for silencers is already pretty small and an integrally silenced pistol would only sell to a fraction of that market. That manufacturer would have to undergo the same tooling up that companies like Glock, Smith & Wesson, Colt, and Heckler & Koch do, but sell to a market orders of magnitude smaller. Because of the additional parts and no real savings in material, it would still cost at least as much as a pistol and silencer purchased separately.

I don't think your idea is a bad one. I just think that with current restrictions, there just isn't a viable market for a commercially produced integrally silenced pistol.
User avatar
lawless
Silencertalk Goon Squad
Posts: 4545
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:15 pm
Location: Aksarben

Re: Why are there not more intregal pistols?

Post by lawless »

Golovko wrote:
Because while anyone (legally authorized) can turn a Ruger Mk. II barrel into a silencer, most pistol designs do not lend themselves well to integral designs. Even fixed barreled pistols like the Walther would not be good candidates because the slide would no longer be removable, so for the most part modifying an existing firearm is out of the question. At the very least a manufacturer would have to rebuild a significant fraction of a pistol--if not build one entirely from the ground up. Absent a big military contract, that manufacturer would have to rely on sales to the civilian community. The civilian market for silencers is already pretty small and an integrally silenced pistol would only sell to a fraction of that market. That manufacturer would have to undergo the same tooling up that companies like Glock, Smith & Wesson, Colt, and Heckler & Koch do, but sell to a market orders of magnitude smaller. Because of the additional parts and no real savings in material, it would still cost at least as much as a pistol and silencer purchased separately.

I don't think your idea is a bad one. I just think that with current restrictions, there just isn't a viable market for a commercially produced integrally silenced pistol.
lol yeah or they could just make the silencer body removable for cleaning. You kinda overlooked a mojor part of that one.

On a side note Why not just use a luger instead?
Golovko
Senior Silent Operator
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:10 am

Re: Why are there not more intregal pistols?

Post by Golovko »

lawless101aa wrote: lol yeah or they could just make the silencer body removable for cleaning. You kinda overlooked a mojor part of that one.

On a side note Why not just use a luger instead?
Because if you take a fixed-barrel pistol like the Walther PPK, make it integrally suppressed with a silencer body that can be removed for cleaning, you end up with a Walther PPK that has a detachable silencer, and that already exists. Pistols with completely exposed barrels are pretty hard to come by outside of designs adapted from submachineguns.

As for using the Luger, there are two problems with that. First off, the Luger does not use a fixed barrel. Second, unlike the Ruger the Luger is not exactly a currently produced mass market item.[/img]
User avatar
wolf
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:32 am

Re: NOT FIXED

Post by wolf »

stymie wrote:
RatPatrol wrote:Howabout if someone built an integral around a Walther P-38? I have not handled one in a while, but as I recall they are fixed barrel and easy to come by. Hmmm....might want to talk to one of the guys who builds integrals.
Locked breech action is similar to a Beretta M9
The other way around ,,the Beretta was copied from the P38 :wink:
User avatar
stymie
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1679
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 4:45 pm

Re: NOT FIXED

Post by stymie »

wolf wrote:
stymie wrote:
RatPatrol wrote:Howabout if someone built an integral around a Walther P-38? I have not handled one in a while, but as I recall they are fixed barrel and easy to come by. Hmmm....might want to talk to one of the guys who builds integrals.
Locked breech action is similar to a Beretta M9
The other way around ,,the Beretta was copied from the P38 :wink:
I DID NOT say that the P.38 copied the Beretta M9/ 92FS... I just said it was a similar locking mechanism.

Time Warp?

Lack of Reading Comprehension?

Sheeeesh!!!!
:roll:
;)

& what's with some of you who still insist that the P.38 has a FIXED BARREL... ?

I give up... lol
"My GOD can kick your god's ass!"
User avatar
lawless
Silencertalk Goon Squad
Posts: 4545
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:15 pm
Location: Aksarben

Re: Why are there not more intregal pistols?

Post by lawless »

Golovko wrote:
As for using the Luger, there are two problems with that. First off, the Luger does not use a fixed barrel. Second, unlike the Ruger the Luger is not exactly a currently produced mass market item.
How is the luger NOT a fixed barrel. It sure looks like it. Maybe it moves and I just dont know.
User avatar
lawless
Silencertalk Goon Squad
Posts: 4545
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:15 pm
Location: Aksarben

Re: Why are there not more intregal pistols?

Post by lawless »

Wikipedia wrote:The Luger pistol was manufactured to exacting standards and has a long service life. Luger pistols were more accurate than contemporary firearms due mostly to its fixed barrel. This is in contrast to some other designs where the barrel moves while the bullet is still in the barrel such as Browning's M1911. Bill Ruger praised the Luger's 55 degree angle of the grip and duplicated that shape on the .22 pistol
User avatar
#93
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 859
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:54 pm
Location: SW Ohio

Post by #93 »

I always thought a Lahti L-35 would make a cool integral host. Like the P-38 the barrel does move to the rear. It still has more potential than a tilting barrel though.

The reason so few 9mm and above pistols have a fixed barrel is because the slide would have to be massive with out a locking/delayed blow back mechanism or incorporate a gas system like the HK P series uses.

Image
This message has been approved by #93
User avatar
stymie
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1679
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 4:45 pm

Jeeese... I don't believe this s--t!

Post by stymie »

lawless101aa wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:The Luger pistol was manufactured to exacting standards and has a long service life. Luger pistols were more accurate than contemporary firearms due mostly to its fixed barrel. This is in contrast to some other designs where the barrel moves while the bullet is still in the barrel such as Browning's M1911. Bill Ruger praised the Luger's 55 degree angle of the grip and duplicated that shape on the .22 pistol
Absolute FELDERCARP...

I've collected LUGERS & P.38s like since forever... lol

The fucking LUGER has a barrel that moves back in sync with the TOGGLE action until it reaches a point were the pressure drops to a safe level for extraction.

WANNA BET ME?
HUH?
:wink:

WIKIPEDIA IS FUCKING WRONG in this instance.
where do they get this KRAP?
:roll:
"My GOD can kick your god's ass!"
User avatar
stymie
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 1679
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 4:45 pm

Post by stymie »

#93 wrote:The reason so few 9mm and above pistols have a fixed barrel is because the slide would have to be massive with out a locking/delayed blow back mechanism or incorporate a gas system like the HK P series uses.

Image
Try an ASTRA Model 600 9mm; the sucker is totally BLOWBACK & has a heavy as s--t recoil spring.
"My GOD can kick your god's ass!"
User avatar
3
Elite Industry Professional
Posts: 1243
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:28 am
Location: Florida

Post by 3 »

The Colt OHG proposaed gun had the can mounted to the frame due to the rotating bbl. The pistol was based of of the All American 2000 design.tThe bbl .rotated independantly from the can or muzzle brake.

We (KAC) have made efforts to reduce the overall length of a pistol/can package. The first question that comes up is How short can I make the can and what is the max. acceptable sound level? The other question is what is the max. acceptable overall length?
Specialized ammo would be nice too..40 cal ammo is gaining momentum in the military comunity and if adopted as a standard round would bring up issues for this aplication.
User avatar
Ben B.
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2513
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:53 pm
Location: Eugene, OR

Post by Ben B. »

A P38 would make a nice integral.
User avatar
wolf
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:32 am

Re: Why are there not more intregal pistols?

Post by wolf »

lawless101aa wrote:
Golovko wrote:
As for using the Luger, there are two problems with that. First off, the Luger does not use a fixed barrel. Second, unlike the Ruger the Luger is not exactly a currently produced mass market item.
How is the luger NOT a fixed barrel. It sure looks like it. Maybe it moves and I just dont know.


Image

http://www.modelguns.co.uk/images/p08para12.jpg
User avatar
wolf
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:32 am

Re: Why are there not more intregal pistols?

Post by wolf »

lawless101aa wrote:
Golovko wrote:
As for using the Luger, there are two problems with that. First off, the Luger does not use a fixed barrel. Second, unlike the Ruger the Luger is not exactly a currently produced mass market item.
How is the luger NOT a fixed barrel. It sure looks like it. Maybe it moves and I just dont know.
The top part with the barrel slides back ,and the toggle is pushed over the toggle point now the slide stops but the breach moves to the rear

Image
User avatar
wolf
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:32 am

Post by wolf »

This is the HK VP 70 it is blowback when they did make them it was with a stock for it ,when the stock was attached ,it could shoot fully auto :wink:
:wink:

Image
User avatar
wolf
Silent But Deadly
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:32 am

Post by wolf »

Mongo wrote:
ArevaloSOCOM wrote:LOL.

Thanks Poacher.

:lol:

A MKII type pistol in 9mm would be perfect IMHO.
I think its called a Luger :P
:wink:

Image
Post Reply