Trust Strategy

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GDizzy
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Trust Strategy

Post by GDizzy »

Wasn’t sure if this would go here, or in the Legal/Politics section, so I apologize if I picked the wrong one.

I finally decided to set up a Trust (mostly to protect my wife when I’m away on work, or the in laws when they watch the house), and I bought the one from GunTrustGuru. Jim answered the phone, spent longer than I would have imagined explaining some features to me, and convinced me that his was the best- short of having a custom one drafted.

Once I get this next can on it, I’ll work through transferring my other stuff to it. But that got me thinking:

If, every time I go to make a change on it, I have to get a notary to officiate my having my trustees removed, and then get everyone back to a notary to put them back on, that will get cumbersome.

On the other hand, if I do a separate trust for each stamp, I only have to get them to a notary, to add them in batches, it’ll be much simpler.

I’ll likely only ever have 2-4 people on it, but it would still be a PITA getting them all to a notary every time I make a change.

What do you all do?
Am I overthinking this?
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Re: Trust Strategy

Post by mbogo »

Be advised that transferring your NFA items to a trust will require Form 4 submissions plus $200 for each item (plus the seemingly interminable waiting for approvals).

If you keep the NFA items in a safe to which no one else has access, you don't need to "protect" your wife or in-laws with a trust.

If you still want to make a trust and have other people use the NFA items, ask your trust writer about 'supporting trustees'. These are people permitted to be in possession of the NFA item(s) outside your presence.

You don't need to notarize additions/deletions from the Schedule A.

mbogo
7 stamps and 1 in jail :mrgreen:
GDizzy
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Re: Trust Strategy

Post by GDizzy »

mbogo wrote:Be advised that transferring your NFA items to a trust will require Form 4 submissions plus $200 for each item (plus the seemingly interminable waiting for approvals).

If you keep the NFA items in a safe to which no one else has access, you don't need to "protect" your wife or in-laws with a trust.

If you still want to make a trust and have other people use the NFA items, ask your trust writer about 'supporting trustees'. These are people permitted to be in possession of the NFA item(s) outside your presence.

You don't need to notarize additions/deletions from the Schedule A.

mbogo
Yeah. Aware that I’ll have to transfer stuff to the trust on a new stamp, but I’m OK with that (as OK as any American can be, I guess).

Also aware that I don’t need a notary to add stuff to it. The gunTrustGuru standard trust doesn’t have a Schedule A. The property list is outside the trust doc, so you don’t have to send it in with with the Form 4 - apparently some people don’t like that, so it’s written around that.

I assume the supporting trustees you mention are what this trust calls a co-trustee. It’s drafted so that you initiate it with yourself as the only Trustee, a Succeeding Trustee (not a “responsible person”), and beneficiaries (also not RPs), so you only send in one set of finger prints and photos.

Then, afterward, you add co-trustees through a notarized signature page.

Removing trustees requires a notary (your signature only), and adding trustees requires a notary (yours and the trustees’ signatures).

I’m just thinking that a specific trust (different name and date is all) for each stamp means that you only have to add your trustees once, and it’s done. If you don’t get your latest one populated, then the rest of the collection is still protected.

Refusing my wife and inlaws access is impractical. My wife’s guns are mixed in with mine, and I’d like to leave cans on the HD carbine and vermin guns for the sake of everyone’s hearing. I live in the middle of nowhere, have a security system, and it wouldn’t be unheard of for my mother-in-law to have to shoot a problem raccoon while she’s watching the house.
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Re: Trust Strategy

Post by GDizzy »

BTW, does Robert still frequent this place?
I haven’t seen him in years, and I don’t even know what he’s doing now.
Seems like he dropped off the face of the earth.
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T-Rex
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Re: Trust Strategy

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If I may ask, why are you repeatedly adding and removing responsible persons, co-trustee or otherwise?
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Re: Trust Strategy

Post by GDizzy »

T-Rex wrote:If I may ask, why are you repeatedly adding and removing responsible persons, co-trustee or otherwise?
I’m not saying I will. It is more a question of having the flexibility to do so if I felt the need.


On a completely unrelated note: did you know that you have to send in fingerprints and photos for all the people who are, at the moment the transfer is applied for, RPs on the trust?
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T-Rex
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Re: Trust Strategy

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GDizzy wrote:I’m not saying I will. It is more a question of having the flexibility to do so if I felt the need.
I guess I don't know where your question is going then. You'll need the notary whenever someone is added or removed from both a new and existing trust. So, it doesn't save you anything, since it's the same process. Unless, of course, you opened several trusts in one shot.
GDizzy wrote:On a completely unrelated note: did you know that you have to send in fingerprints and photos for all the people who are, at the moment the transfer is applied for, RPs on the trust?
Yes, 41P covered this, extensively. This is the reason why you form a trust w/ only 1 responsible party. Then, after approval, you add the remaining parties. Only one set of prints to turn in. Some people will use a separate trust every time they apply for toys; doing a couple at a time.
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GDizzy
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Re: Trust Strategy

Post by GDizzy »

T-Rex wrote:
GDizzy wrote:I’m not saying I will. It is more a question of having the flexibility to do so if I felt the need.
I guess I don't know where your question is going then. You'll need the notary whenever someone is added or removed from both a new and existing trust. So, it doesn't save you anything, since it's the same process. Unless, of course, you opened several trusts in one shot.
GDizzy wrote:On a completely unrelated note: did you know that you have to send in fingerprints and photos for all the people who are, at the moment the transfer is applied for, RPs on the trust?
Yes, 41P covered this, extensively. This is the reason why you form a trust w/ only 1 responsible party. Then, after approval, you add the remaining parties. Only one set of prints to turn in. Some people will use a separate trust every time they apply for toys; doing a couple at a time.
Right; that's exactly what I'm getting at. I realize it's a first-world problem, but I'm trying to mitigate the notary-hassle, and minimize exposure-risk to family between purchases/transfers.

If I put everything on one trust, it goes something like this:
1- Get trust notarized, and apply for first stamp.
2 - Add trustees (as I can get them to a notary).
3 - Get myself back to the notary to add serial to assignments.
*****Next Transfer******
4- Get myself to a notary to strip my trustees.
5 - Add-back trustees (as I can get them to a notary).
6 - Get myself back to the notary to add serial to assignments.
Repeat Steps 4-6 for each transfer

The problem I see there is that, between applying for a given transfer, getting each individual back to a notary, and/or adding the new serial, they're restricted access to all my NFA firearms, including the can and the SBR in the bedroom closet, the can on the vermin gun in the kitchen, and the AOW scabbarded on my tractor- the stuff that just isn't practical to keep locked away. Heaven-forbid I croak on the way back from the SOT; my wife has no legal access to ANY of them.

If I go a separate one for each serial, it goes something like this:
1- Get trust notarized, and apply for stamp.
2 - Add trustees (as I can get them to a notary).
3 - Get myself back to the notary to add serial to the Assignment.
3b - Book-end the trust, with at least my wife and in-laws protected no matter how that serial is stored/used/positioned.
3c - If my cousin travels in to deer hunt, while we're out getting his hunting license, we drop by a notary and get him access to whatever can he is going to use.
3d- If cousin comes back next year, he's still good with that can, even if I bought something the year before.

I think I answered my own question, but I wanted to see if folks more experienced in living with trust-owned NFA gear could point out what I'm missing, or provide a better strategy.
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Re: Trust Strategy

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You can't change the trust until after the stamp has been approved.

For your situation, it sounds easiest to just make a bunch of trusts, with you as sole RP, and fill them in as you buy items. With a digital copy it wouldn't take more than a couple keystrokes to make an alternate trust. The notary can do 10 in a sitting. Put a dollar in each; if you don't use, dissolve. Make 'em simple; like, (serial#) Trust.

As people you wish to become RP's visit, call the notary over and add them to a trust. No need to ever remove them. I must know at least a half dozen notaries, not including my mother, and never have been charged a fee.

It sounds like your situation has a silver lining. :)
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GDizzy
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Re: Trust Strategy

Post by GDizzy »

T-Rex wrote:You can't change the trust until after the stamp has been approved.

For your situation, it sounds easiest to just make a bunch of trusts, with you as sole RP, and fill them in as you buy items. With a digital copy it wouldn't take more than a couple keystrokes to make an alternate trust. The notary can do 10 in a sitting. Put a dollar in each; if you don't use, dissolve. Make 'em simple; like, (serial#) Trust.

As people you wish to become RP's visit, call the notary over and add them to a trust. No need to ever remove them. I must know at least a half dozen notaries, not including my mother, and never have been charged a fee.

It sounds like your situation has a silver lining. :)
The notary is my problem. I only know the one at work, otherwise I’ll have to start paying attention to those signs I’ve always seen and dismissed.


Thanks.
I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing some detail or scenario that would cause me headaches down the road.
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Re: Trust Strategy

Post by GDizzy »

T-Rex wrote:You can't change the trust until after the stamp has been approved.
Are you sure about that part?
It’s not a show-stopper for me, but my understanding is that the trust has to be accurate as of the moment you submit your application. Any changes that happen before or after that are the trustees’ business. The NFA examiners aren’t trust lawyers, after all.

If that really is the case, though, I suppose it only adds support to my strategy. If you can’t add back trustees between application and approval (which I’m near certain you legally can), then my gear would be accessible by only-me for each 4-148 month period that I have a stamp-app in. Assuming I’ve got them in on a rolling basis, my trust would never be accessible by anyone but me.
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Re: Trust Strategy

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T-Rex wrote:If I may ask, why are you repeatedly adding and removing responsible persons, co-trustee or otherwise?
I'm under the impression when you purchase NFA everyone who is an active trustee is supposed to be mug shot and fingerprinted.

I'm told dropping all your trustees during the purchase of NFA eliminates this requirement and you put them back on once the form has cleared.

Take them off before you submit papers.

Put them back on once t he papers are back.
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Re: Trust Strategy

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GDizzy wrote:
T-Rex wrote:You can't change the trust until after the stamp has been approved.
Are you sure about that part?
From ATF's Q&A:
Q: Will new responsible persons, added after the making or transfer, be subject to the same requirements?
A: Once an application has been approved, no documentation is required to be submitted to ATF when a new responsible person is added to a trust or legal entity. However, should a responsible person change after the application has been submitted, but before it is approved, the applicant or transferee must contact the NFA Branch for guidance.

Wanna bet they ask you to send in the new RP's photo and prints?


doubloon wrote:I'm under the impression when you purchase NFA everyone who is an active trustee is supposed to be mug shot and fingerprinted.
I get this, but you can take a "passport" photo with your cell phone, use the passport photo app, and have a pic printed in under a minute. You can, also, fingerprint yourself in under 10min. It's so much easier doing it yourself than having someone trying to manipulate your fingers. There's no time period specified for prints (under a year for the photo) so you could easily roll a dozen stamps worth of prints in an hour. Hell, have everyone over, for a night of beer and pizza, and you'll have plenty of prints and pictures to last a lifetime :D

The "I gotta get everyone off my trust/I gotta get everyone back on my trust" route just seems like such a hassle.
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GDizzy
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Re: Trust Strategy

Post by GDizzy »

T-Rex wrote:
GDizzy wrote:
T-Rex wrote:You can't change the trust until after the stamp has been approved.
Are you sure about that part?
From ATF's Q&A:
Q: Will new responsible persons, added after the making or transfer, be subject to the same requirements?
A: Once an application has been approved, no documentation is required to be submitted to ATF when a new responsible person is added to a trust or legal entity. However, should a responsible person change after the application has been submitted, but before it is approved, the applicant or transferee must contact the NFA Branch for guidance.

Wanna bet they ask you to send in the new RP's photo and prints?
Good catch. I bet you’re right.

The impression I was given (by an NFA lawyer, no less) was that you only had to have the trustee(s) off the day of the application, but what you provided is a quote straight from the horse.

T-Rex wrote:
doubloon wrote:I'm under the impression when you purchase NFA everyone who is an active trustee is supposed to be mug shot and fingerprinted.
I get this, but you can take a "passport" photo with your cell phone, use the passport photo app, and have a pic printed in under a minute. You can, also, fingerprint yourself in under 10min. It's so much easier doing it yourself than having someone trying to manipulate your fingers. There's no time period specified for prints (under a year for the photo) so you could easily roll a dozen stamps worth of prints in an hour. Hell, have everyone over, for a night of beer and pizza, and you'll have plenty of prints and pictures to last a lifetime :D

The "I gotta get everyone off my trust/I gotta get everyone back on my trust" route just seems like such a hassle.
I guess it just comes down to what makes the most sense to the individual.

I suppose I can see your pizza-party strategy, but I think you’re leaving out some significant parts of the hassle. For one: Passport photos are supposed to be less than a year old. Considering that a Form 4 takes almost that long, you’re going to need to throw another pizza party shortly after the one you send in today finally comes back. Second: the 5320 needs to be current, and signed/dated the day it is filled out. I don’t know if there is a formal direction on it, but I’d bet that the ATF would kick back one that was more than a couple weeks old, let alone one a year old.

With a separate trust for each serial, you only send in your own info (in an envelope instead of a box, in some folks’ case), and get your RPs in front of a notary, as you can, when your stamp comes in.

For me, that would be “right away” for the wife, ASAP for the inlaws, and as needed for dad/uncles/cousins when they come in to hunt, and they’ll only ever end up being on that odd can that they hunt on my property with.

Seems much cleaner that way.
I do appreciate the chance to talk it out. It makes much more sense to me now.
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Re: Trust Strategy

Post by GDizzy »

No one answered: does Robert still hang out here? What’s he doing now?
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Re: Trust Strategy

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I haven't seen him post in a long time, another member acts as the primary moderator but I believe there are administrative things the may still need to be done by Robert.

Although it is no evidence of who last used the login site admin profile memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=2
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Elkins45
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Re: Trust Strategy

Post by Elkins45 »

If you own more than three or four NFA items the cheaper route would be just to buy a dedicated safe for them and not tell anyone else the combination. That way your wife and in-laws don't have access and you save all the crazy trust shenanigans.

Paying (again) the $200 transfer tax for each item would just burn my ass. Besides, who doesn't want a new safe?
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