Interest poll

[Shooosh]

I’m curious about the demand for a suppressor that had no back pressure, lowers cyclic rate during full auto firing, and adds(-).400” or no length to standard ar platforms overall length when attached. Db reduction about middle of field (currently)?

[John A.]

Most guys don't shoot full auto, so slowing the cyclic rate for the majority of folks isn't going to be a big selling point. Less back pressure and fouling would be a nice benefit.

Not adding length is interesting. I'm assuming some sort of reflex or integral setup.

The biggest thing a lot of guys look for is weight and sound reduction. Do that without adding much to the OAL, and you'd probably have people throwing money at you.

[ECCO Machine]

There'd be huge demand for a suppressor the size of a chapstick tube if it worked. But there's no free lunch, and it's a game of trade-offs. You can make a super light weight can, but it won't handle rapid fire. You can make a stubby critter, but it won't be hearing safe. You can reduce back pressure, but it means more going out the front and/or a larger can.

Seems to me you're thinking about trying to make basically the entire thing a reflex chamber. It's been done before. You'll see no noteworthy dB reduction out of that.

[GDizzy]

I’m curious about the demand for a suppressor that had no back pressure, lowers cyclic rate during full auto firing, and adds(-).400” or no length to standard ar platforms overall length when attached. Db reduction about middle of field (currently)?

Interest in what you’re describing? Tons.
Interest in what it would really be? No so much.


Even with a zero-clearance aperture or a wipe, you’re not going to catch enough gas to provide “middle of the road dB reduction” out of a device that only extends 1/2” past the muzzle. I’ve seen something like that tried. Even with a membrane end cap used for a single-shot, it didn’t do a whole lot.

[CanOfWhooppass]

Regardless of reflex, ported integral etc. It has to stand up to the competition in the marketplace. That requires not only performance, but cost, a reliable company and faith in the guarantee.

It's rare that a product or business succeeds just because it has a good product. What is your business plan?

[Shooosh]

Agreed that most users will not be shooting full auto, but was hoping some light bulbs might go off about the reduced cyclic rate, and my claim of reduced back pressure. (around zero, some early velocity tests suggest 1-2% increase in velocity ). The reduced cyclic rate caused some rather heated debate and head scratching amongst some engineers in New England during some early testing.

The design is not a reflex chamber, or "open", nor integral, it direct threads on like a traditional can, and I have actually been able to achieve 20dB of suppression without adding any length to a stock ar15, the first time out.

And it interestingly does not get as, or stay as hot as traditional cans!

[fishman]

It threads on to the end of the barrel yet adds no overall length? How so?

[Shooosh]

Remove flash suppressor, replace with can.

[fishman]

20db reduction at the ear or measured elsewhere?

[Shooosh]

shooters ear 147
1m left 148
1m back 133
5m left 135

[a_canadian]

Remove flash suppressor, replace with can.

Ah, that makes a bit more sense. When you wrote that there was none of up to 0.4" length increase on an out of the box rifle, I probably wasn't alone in taking that to mean little to no increase in actual barrel length. Butnsince flash hiders range between about 1.75" and 5.5" in added length, the actual increase in length over actual muzzle position with your device remains a mystery. What is the actual distance between the crown of the barrel and the end of your device? If it's 4" or more, a 20dB reduction doesn't seem like a lot, though of course the big, heavy OSS cans don't drop dB a lot either and they're 6" or more long... So perhaps that's what your comparing with. They're apparently slightly below 140dB.

[John A.]

I'm not trying to discourage you, but those numbers are still pretty high.

What else do you expect to try to get the numbers down more?

edit: looks like Canadian and I were typing at the same time.

[Shooosh]

Under an inch from muzzle crown to end of my can. And I should be clear, the can is of course much longer than an inch,..........

Yes, the reduction number is high, my goal is 140dB, osha limit of safe levels being pursued by certain mfgs........without adding length to gun.

I am currently working to reduce it.

[Shooosh]

And I should be clear, the can is of course much longer than an inch,..........

[ECCO Machine]

Regardless of effectiveness, you need to keep in mind that many host weapons won't be able to accept a suppressor that comes back over the barrel very far, especially if it's >1.5" diameter. With the AR, you might have 7" of .720" dia barrel available forward of the gas block with a 16" M4gery, or you may only have 1.5" or 2" with a disspator or shorty. And regardless of barrel length forward of the gas block or other part that precludes sliding anything further down, it still has to fit over the barrel OD, and if you want to be even remotely successful, it better fit under most handguards.

I think even if you get the performance, which I'm skeptical of, you'll have an extremely limited market. If it extends back 5" from the muzzle crown, it wouldn't work on a single one of the fourteen ARs I have. Anything greater than 4.5" back over the barrel will basically make 16" tubes with carbine gas or 18" mid lengths the only hosts that'll work, and a suppressor that will only work on one host may as well be an effective integral.


Without going so far as to call this snake oil on a unicorn's horn, I will say that it seems highly unlikely that you've been able to accomplish something which none of us, including major manufacturers with hundreds of thousands in R&D, could do. Again, there's no free lunch, and effective suppressors add length & increase backpressure. Conservation of energy. You can't beat physics.

[Shooosh]

Awesome!
This is the conversation I am looking for.

Agreed, this format is currently indeed limited to a few platforms, and a bbl length,....a configuration that arguably happens to represent possibly the most common configuration of ar rifles, and possibly the biggest piece of the market here in the states. From a marketing standpoint, this does not seem to be a bad thing. Perfect panacea for all? Nope. There is no (practical, accepted/affordable/proven by market) ability to fold the stock on our beloved AR platforms either, yet we still buy them by the jillions. Definitely a compromise we seem to be willing to make.

New technology suppression will likely require a rethinking by the lo drag hi-speed community about where to make compromises to achieve their length/suppression goals. Now guys with standard length bbls can put on a can, and have a gun with the length benefits that the guys who run shorter bbls, (but screwing that length right back on with a conventional length/format can) get. They also get none of the reliability issues of running a shorter bbl/gas system, compounded by the addition of a pressure increasing can. They also benefit from non degraded accuracy, due full length bbl, and better reliability. Plus, no separate tax stamp for sbr.



All of your guns that this may or may not fit, were likely very carefully researched, and configured, based upon the best and wisest choices of the best technologies currently available at the time to achieve your specific goal. I suspect a few compromises were likely made to achieve the final configuration? What if you were not forced to deal with the limitations of the current technologies?

Just think of it, no special length gas tube, no adjustable gas block or need for different gas settings between suppressed and unsuppressed, no goofy gas shields on your charging handle, no special buffer, no special bolt, no need for a q.d. connection

Assumption:(with the obvious exceptions) A can typically is removed from it's host when not specifically required, due to length/weight/reliability/cleaning/poi shift issues.
A can that doesn't have most of these issues, might not really need to ever come off the host (another departure from current thinking).



I appreciate your being VERY kind with the snake oil comment, which is the conclusion most knowledgeable, experienced people will arrive at. That is what the engineers who tested it thought as well. Some were very upset. What I cannot change, is that this stated performance has already been achieved, and verified, in less than an inch forward of muzzle.

[Gelon1982]

Regardless of effectiveness, you need to keep in mind that many host weapons won't be able to accept a suppressor that comes back over the barrel very far, especially if it's >1.5" diameter. https://suppsforlife.to/category/oral-steroids/ With the AR, you might have 7" of .720" dia barrel available forward of the gas block with a 16" M4gery, or you may only have 1.5" or 2" with a disspator or shorty. And regardless of barrel length forward of the gas block or other part that precludes sliding anything further down, it still has to fit over the barrel OD, and if you want to be even remotely successful, it better fit under most handguards.

that part was super helpful for me ! thanks a lot for that! i really appreciate it a lot. i was just wondering if i may ask you some other questions if you don't mind as i'm a newcomer! thanks!