Permanently Attached Can?

[JeffWard]

I'm considering getting a 5.56 can to run on one of my SBRs (10.5"). A number of manufacturers are making direct thread cans that can be pinned to a 10" barrel, making a 16" (one stamp) set-up.

This one looks awesome:
https://thunderbeastarms.com/products/556-take-down

Anybody have thoughts??

It runs an amazing $475 in the real world...

Jeff

[fishman]

I regret pinning my 300 blk can. Unless you live in a state where you can't own an SBR, or if you take your sbr across state lines often, its not worth it imo.

Each of those baffles would need to be tack welded together so that you can't disassemble the permanently attached can.

[John A.]

Long as the tube and endcap is welded or silver soldered to the barrel correctly, and the tube and rear endcap still takes up enough space to bring it to legal length, it's OK to have a removable front cap and serviceable baffles.

Unless the baffles are somehow part of the exterior tube somehow.

[fishman]

It appears to be a tubeless design. I might be wrong.

Edit: I was wrong. Those ridges are cooling fins? Aesthetic bumps? Ribbed for her pleasure?

[JeffWard]

It's REALLY heavy. I may go for the Sig Saur or another.

[ECCO Machine]

It's REALLY heavy. I may go for the Sig Saur or another.

They are. My heavy duty machine gun rated can, the Leviathan XD, is like that too; same weight, 1/2" shorter, .2" wider. There's no free lunch, and if you want it to be able to take full auto fire from short tubes, they have to be substantial. I took it even a step further and instead of a welded on 316L stainless tube like the TBAC, I use a solid piece of 1-13/16" 422 stainless and bore it out.

If you're not going to abuse it to the degree it's designed for, you could reduce the OD and shave some weight that way. Honestly, though, 27 oz is not too bad on the end of a 7.5-12" barrel, the entry cost is low, and being able to rebuild it for a couple hundred bucks after 20K or so rounds of moving baffles around means it's gonna be about the most economical 5.56 option out there.

[T-Rex]

Why not just build it off a Pistol lower?
You can thread on the suppressor, slip a stock on, and voila, a legal rifle w/ a 10.5" bbl and shoulder stock.

Just make sure to remove the stock before the suppressor (returning it to a pistol)

[fishman]

Trex...

Adding a suppressor does not make an SBR a rifle. Barrel length is measured from the breech face to the muzzle UNLESS your muzzle device is permanently attached

[T-Rex]

Trex...

Adding a suppressor does not make an SBR a rifle. Barrel length is measured from the breech face to the muzzle UNLESS your muzzle device is permanently attached

This is incorrect, for the situation described.
It's perfectly legal to add a suppressor to a pistol (making bbl length >16") and subsequently including a shoulder stock.
With this particular configuration, the muzzle device need not be perm attached.
I've received this info directly from the ATF, on more than one occasion. In each case it is understood that this is a "parts kit" and designed w/ all intent of creating a non-NFA firearm.

ATF Rul. 2011-4:
Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm
regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by
26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or reassembled
in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a
barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle
does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown
condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same
weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA
has been made.

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made
when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a
barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration
not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nowhere in the ruling (Fed regulation) does it state that parts must be perm attached.
Your reference is from the ATF/NFA handbook, which states, on the first page, "This publication is not a law book".
There is no Fed law or regulation which states the muzzle devices must be perm attach.
Nor is there a law or regulation which defines barrel length.
All of this leaves plenty of precedence for the scenario described.

Also, look at barrel shrouds. It's known that as long as the length would equal a >16" barrel, that the barrel itself need not be >16". Nothing states the shroud need be perm attached, either.

[mars]

i'd go pistol build and put in the stamp for the SBR while waiting.

[fishman]

s--t, id have made my integral 45acp 16" instead of 15" if id known that I could attach a stock.

[ECCO Machine]

Trex...

Adding a suppressor does not make an SBR a rifle. Barrel length is measured from the breech face to the muzzle UNLESS your muzzle device is permanently attached

This is incorrect, for the situation described.
It's perfectly legal to add a suppressor to a pistol (making bbl length >16") and subsequently including a shoulder stock.
With this particular configuration, the muzzle device need not be perm attached.
I've received this info directly from the ATF, on more than one occasion. In each case it is understood that this is a "parts kit" and designed w/ all intent of creating a non-NFA firearm.

ATF Rul. 2011-4:
Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm
regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by
26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or reassembled
in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a
barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle
does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown
condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same
weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA
has been made.

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made
when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a
barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration
not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nowhere in the ruling (Fed regulation) does it state that parts must be perm attached.
Your reference is from the ATF/NFA handbook, which states, on the first page, "This publication is not a law book".
There is no Fed law or regulation which states the muzzle devices must be perm attach.
Nor is there a law or regulation which defines barrel length.
All of this leaves plenty of precedence for the scenario described.

Also, look at barrel shrouds. It's known that as long as the length would equal a >16" barrel, that the barrel itself need not be >16". Nothing states the shroud need be perm attached, either.

You're not reading it right.

If a shoulder stock is installed, it either needs to be a registered SBR or have a >16" barrel and 26" OAL, period. Fishman is absolutely correct in that a removable muzzle device, suppressor or otherwise, does NOT count toward barrel length. It MUST be permanently attached, end of story. If it isn't, you have assembled a short barreled rifle.

If you want to go ahead and assemble the way you believe is legal (which isn't), have at it. Your prerogative, your freedom in peril. But you need to stop spreading misinformation on this public board.


The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-n ... 2/download

Doesn't matter that it's not statutory; they're an executive agency, ergo have the power to make such determinations and enforce them.

[T-Rex]

"ECCO Machine"]You're not reading it right.

I'm not reading anything; I'm reiterating what was explained to me by the ATF, on more than one occasion, by more than one agent.

But you need to stop spreading misinformation on this public board.

As stated, I've provided enough precedence for my case and point.
Please, I beg of you, refute my claims with something of stature, a writ, law, or regulation.
If your finality is a download link to "The Nfa Handbook", it'll not be taken seriously.

Your objection has been duly noted.

[ECCO Machine]

As stated, I've provided enough precedence for my case and point.
Please, I beg of you, refute my claims with something of stature, a writ, law, or regulation.
If your finality is a download link to "The Nfa Handbook", it'll not be taken seriously.

The NFA handbook tells you how the executive agency charged with enforcing NFA measures barrel length. The relevant statute is 26 USC § 5845(a)(3):

a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length

No matter how you've interpreted it or what some field agent told you, if your barrel measures <16" from breech face to muzzle using the method ATF explains and you do not have an approved form 1 or 4, you have committed a felony. If your suppressor or other muzzle device is not permanently attached, it does not count toward barrel length. If you put a rifle stock on your <16" barreled AR, it is SBR, no two ways about it, no loopholes or workarounds.

[fishman]

I'm not reading anything; I'm reiterating what was explained to me by the ATF, on more than one occasion, by more than one agent.

we all know that LEOs are NEVER wrong.

Trex, the verbiage you posted clearly says your barrel must be 16". A 10" barrel and a 7" silencer isnt a 17" barrel. It's two separate parts/assemblies.

[John A.]

if your barrel measures <16" from breech face to muzzle using the method ATF explains and you do not have an approved form 1 or 4, you have committed a felony. If your suppressor or other muzzle device is not permanently attached, it does not count toward barrel length

That is how I've always measured length.

However, welding a 6 1/2" can onto a 10" barrel will meet the requirements since the can would be permanently attached at that point.