New suppressor owner questions and frustration

[DKDravis]

My method is like that of Eccomachine - only I use a set of pre-made precision bronze "pins" that have a slight press-fit to the given calibre, and I really do not care how much out of true the chamber end of the barrel is, since that has no influence on the precision of the bore/thread/shoulder alignment to the last 3 inches of bore. I own a WW2 German K98 Mauser that has a bent barrel, the muzzle is literally almost an inch out of true, but this old lump of iron still puts 5 shots into less than two inches at 100 meters, using the original iron sights.

The bronze pins are turned on my Colchester Student 1800 with certified Gamet high precision bearings - Even my best dial indicator shows no runout on those -so they are sub 0.001 mm - That is more than adequate precision to ensure better alignment of my threads and barrel shoulders, and better than any of the suppressors I have measured. (The bronze pins in 0.01 mm increments come in handy for checking the bores of cans as well)

I have used this method, and cut upwards of a hundred threads for suppressors, and never had a baffle strike complaint or complaints about reduced precision. Lots of POI shift complaints, but mostly from threading spindly hunting contour barrels, used with heavy reflex suppressors, which were the standard for the first few years of suppressors being legal for hunting here.

I own several german made hammer forged barrels, and they are just as straight and true as my cut rifled shilens, and one of them at least as precise, although you can not really compare two completely different Rifles, and deduce the inherent precision of just the barrel.

[John A.]

The 22 barrel that I added the photo of while threading and chucked up near the face has an off center bore. It doesn't show up extremely well in the photo I originally added of the barrel I was threading.

It became even more apparent when I cut the barrel down to 12.5". It was a lot more off center to my eye at 12.5" than it was at 21 inches before it was cut.

Granted this barrel was made in 1968 and who knows on what equipment or whether the operator was skilled or the first day on the job???? Regardless, long bores are going to wander on the way through.

The thing is, the barrel is still as accurate as it ever was. You can still place a quarter over a 10 shot group at 25 yards and cover the entire group.

But POI did shift afterwards. And in my opinion, moreso due to the position of the center of the bore at the muzzle than anything else because the bore was pointing slightly away from where it was when I started.

I just rezero'd the scope and called it good. Nothing more could be expected or done about it. The important thing is the threads are concentric with the bore when I was finished. And why being concentric with the OD is not as desirable. Almost anyone could thread concentric to the OD. But in extreme circumstances, that could lead to baffle strikes and sorrow.

[ECCO Machine]

long bores are going to wander on the way through..........

The thing is, the barrel is still as accurate as it ever was. You can still place a quarter over a 10 shot group at 25 yards and cover the entire group.

I think that's perhaps what some are misunderstanding here. An off-center/arced bore has no bearing on accuracy potential; a barrel that's bowed so bad inside and out that it won't even roll could easily be sub minute. You might not have enough adjustment in your sights or optic to compensate for it, but that's a separate issue. Diametric consistency, & tolerance in the bore are what matters where accuracy is concerned, along with consistent harmonics and a good crown. There's more to that equation, of course, but the point is a barrel needn't have a dead straight bore to be dead nuts accurate.

[John A.]

I came across this fairly short video today and it pertained to how the barrel bores are often not straight through the barrel.

I was watching some reference material for piloted reamers and happened across it and I wanted to share it with you guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwyjNOZJsok

[doubloon]

Cool video.

[ECCO Machine]

I came across this fairly short video today and it pertained to how the barrel bores are often not straight through the barrel.

I was watching some reference material for piloted reamers and happened across it and I wanted to share it with you guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwyjNOZJsok

His equipment is crap and set up less than great, but that's the gist of it.

For those interested in the minutia of why I said that:

You don't want the barrel clamped by the flat jaws of the chuck, not even with brass or copper sheet. Yeah, they'll protect the barrel from the jaws, but they won't allow proper adjustment, as you'll actually be flexing the barrel as you adjust the back end with the spider. As I mentioned before, I have aluminum jaw inserts I machined which cradle a short piece of 9/32 music wire between the inserts and the chuck jaws. This allows the inserts to pivot with the barrel while still giving a very solid grip.

Two indicators are better than one. Yeah, you can do it with a single indicator, but it's best to have a pair metering simultaneously. I use a Fowler .001" grad at the muzzle and a John Bull Fowler .0001" grad 3" out on the rod. The more precise indicator is further out because, as I mentioned before, axial alignment is more critical than concentricity.

I also use brass rods that I turned for indicating. Have to be careful to not bend the softer material, especially with smaller sizes, but there's no chance of damaging a bore or crown with brass.

As for chamber reaming, I'm not a fan of that style, or of using tail stocks to apply pressure. I chamber barrels on my Hardinge HCT and use the carriage turret to push & pull a floating reamer holder. Also, since he didn't go over it and a lot of other guys do it wrong, shut the spindle down and let it stop completely (with no pressure on the reamer) before inserting or removing the reamer. If you don't, you'll have one nasty, ugly chamber where the shoulder profile flutes take bites out of the walls.

Sorry no pics. Maybe one of these days I'll get another image hosting account so I can give visual representations, just haven't been motivated with other boards having internal photo hosting.

[John A.]

His lathe is a lot nicer than the one I have.

Then again, I don't do this for a living either. That's why most people call them a HOBBY lathe.

[doubloon]

...

For those interested in the minutia of why I said that:

...

Reading a wall of pontificating text posted for the purpose of demeaning others in order to elevate ones stature in a social forum is always a good way to use up a lot of time.

[ECCO Machine]

His lathe is a lot nicer than the one I have.

Then again, I don't do this for a living either. That's why most people call them a HOBBY lathe.

I don't know what yours is, but Grizzly machines are pretty much bottom-of-the-barrel chinese clunkers.

I was referring to the cheap chinese indicator as well. Quality Fowler, Mitutoyo, Starrett, B&S indicators just aren't that expensive, not worth cheaping out when you're supposed to be turning out quality work for other people.

Sometimes it's OK to buy cheaper imported stuff. I have my share of Chinese CCMT boring bars and CXA tool holders, among some other things. My Yuasa holders don't grab the tool any tighter or lock onto the QCTP any more consistently and solidly than the imports. But a solid piece of steel that has the simple job of holding an insert or tool is quite a different matter from precision measuring equipment or entire machines; I don't have the time or inclination to fight with a junky import lathe or mill trying to creep up on tolerances and smooth out ugly cuts from a sloppy geared head lathe that chatters everything. I've used a couple of the Grizzly "gunsmith" lathes, wouldn't take one for free except to sell it cheap on CL. Don't mean to sound like a tool snob, but they really are that crappy. Many people just don't realize it until they use a good machine and develop some perspective, a quality metric.

...

For those interested in the minutia of why I said that:

...

Reading a wall of pontificating text posted for the purpose of demeaning others in order to elevate ones stature in a social forum is always a good way to use up a lot of time.

Who pissed in your wheaties?

If your only take away from all that was a bit of condescension in the tone, that says more about you than me, my friend. Maybe you'd be fine with your gunsmith using substandard equipment and techniques (or would just rather remain naive), but some people might actually want to know that there are better or more correct ways, and what those ways are. At any rate, spare me the self righteous indignation. When a person puts up a video professing themselves an expert on a particular subject, they invite judgements and criticism, which is often deserved.

[John A.]

Mine is a Cummins 7x12. Essentially the same thing as the Grizzly G8688.

Yep, it's pretty bottom of the barrel. Not that it matters much.

I only wish it was longer and allowed fatter OD through the spindle. If it were, I'm sure I could do more with it. I already have a better chuck on it than what came with it.

Maybe someday I'll buy a better machine. If I do, it'll also have a mill. Rather than my homemade one that I mount to it now. And now, I know more what I would use and how I would use it.

This lathe has served me well learning and trying to teach myself how to do this though. And I only paid $225 for it, so I've already gotten my money back out of it just making shotgun followers and extended bolt handles for rifles and threading a few barrels here and there. Not counting all the money I saved doing it myself rather than paying someone else to do the work.

I've got a lot of enjoyment and satisfaction from it.

I think most of us here take a lot of pride in how all our stuff turns out. It's really evident in some of the photos at some of the work and time and extra pains that we've done to make something worthy of putting our name on it. I think all of us knows that is true. Regardless of which lathe you use to make something with.

[ECCO Machine]

I think most of us here take a lot of pride in how all our stuff turns out. It's really evident in some of the photos at some of the work and time and extra pains that we've done to make something worthy of putting our name on it. I think all of us knows that is true. Regardless of which lathe you use to make something with.

No doubt. I've seen photos of some really nice work here, quite a bit of it done on small import machines. If you have the time to creep up on dimensions, do hand finishing and don't mind sometimes having to remake a part because the machine didn't hold tolerances or something jumped/shifted/broke, they'll get the job done.

Back in the day when I was first starting in machine work as a hobby, I had a little Harbor Freight mini mill. I was able to make some pretty impressive (small) parts on it, but it took forever, and there were plenty of do-overs.

These days I get paid to get everything right the first time, and I also need to be time efficient. I lose money if the machine can't take big enough bites or if I have to sand off chatter marks, and I really can't afford to buy someone a $900 Proof Research barrel because the cutting tool went somewhere it wasn't supposed to on account of a sloppy, cheap machine. That's also why I'm so persnickety about how a barrel is threaded; I can't guarantee that the owner will check alignment of a can before firing a shot, so if he/she has a baffle strike, it won't be on account of my work.

[fishman]

Working on other peoples stuff certainly requires another level of responsibility. It also requires premium machines to remain profitable. That doesn't necessarily mean other machines are junk. It means those machines aren't suitable for high volume work (And maybe they're junk). The lathe I use is so painfully slow and unbelievably flexible. I can still hold sub thou on most parts. I usually dont bother except on critical dimensions. Its too time consuming. It doesn't matter if my cones are 59 thou thick when they were supposed to be 55. If they're concentric and a close fit to the tube, I'm happy.

[gsyoung54]

[quote="Heavy_D"]Good evening all,

This is my first suppressor and I will not be identifying the maker as I'm not here to bash anyone. I suspect the problem is mine (my expectations) and not the manufacturer.

I do not go for white glove clean, but I want to remove all build up down to the original surface of the baffles, tube, end caps, etc. Is this where I'm going wrong? Maybe suppressors are a throw away item and I'm expecting life eternal out of them... It wouldn't be the first time I've had a significant misunderstanding.

I have only used the suppressor twice and will probably never use it again. I'm half tempted to surrender it to ATF to get it off my hand receipt.

It is used on an SMG and is specifically designed for use on machine guns. It has aluminum baffles with some special coating on them. I only put a couple hundred rounds through it even though the manufacturer said 1000 is no problem. Maybe they meant the life of the suppressor is 1000 rounds (again referencing the disposable suppressor theory from above) and I was too dumb to pick up on that?

I get a build up that is not soot, but kind of like asphalt. No, I'm not shooting cheap Russian steel case ammo. The asphalt laughs at every solvent I throw at it. I have tried every cleaning suggestion I could find and solicit. Try cleaning solution x, try y, try z. Try soaking it in silicone oil before using. Try spraying WD40 into it when your done to soften up the build up. The only thing that will even begin to touch it is easy off oven cleaner over a period of three days along with a lot of work with brass brushes. Brush everything a couple times an hour and reapplying oven cleaner between brushings (which is not fun stuff to work with). The build up is actually incredible for it's strength and resilience. I'm quite certain that if I sand blasted the baffles, the aluminum would melt away before the asphalt.

Unfortunately, I've pretty thoroughly buggered up the suppressor due to the oven cleaner damaging the tube and end cap (stripped the paint and corroded it some). Part of me wishes I cared but sees little to no value in the suppressor and the other part is pretty upset.

If this is what suppressor ownership is all about, why the hell does anyone own one?

Maybe I just got a lemon. Maybe they're just a plain stupid idea for an SMG. I don't know.

Additionally, if suppressors are something you disassemble, clean, lube and reassemble every 3-5 rounds I've got no use for them. My hat is off to the ladies and gentlemen with that kind of dedication. I'll just wear the muffs, thank you.

I hope my experience is not the norm. I hope the great members here get far more use and enjoyment from their suppressors and find that the enjoyment of shooting suppressed exceeds the cleaning.

Take care,

Heavy_D[/quote.

You could always get the tube Cerakoted with their high temp black. That will make it look nice again. I have a few subgun suppressors in 45 and 9 and they all use steel or titanium baffles or monocores, sometimes with an inconel blast baffle. I think you have a perfectly good pistol suppressor and if you want the full auto experience to be quiet there are some amazing suppressors out there, almost too many to list but AAC, Silencerco, Liberty, Dead Air, Thunderbeast and AWC are all good sites to browse and get ideas. They all come with instructions and good customer service.