Give your top five suppressors builders
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Give your top five suppressors builders
Could you fellas take the time for me to list what you think the top five suppressor makers with number 1 being the best and 5 the worse?
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US or worldwide? Rifle or pistol?
It is really a hard question because some companies make a few things as well as anyone, but not other things.
For US rifle:
Top Tier:
AAC (all welded, great mount, accurate, very durable, good sound, nice machining, 556s are light weight).
Surefire (all welded, nice mount, accurate, lightweight, ok sound).
Ops Inc (all welded, unexceptional mount, accurate, good sound).
KAC (all welded, sometimes accurate, good sound).
YHM (so far their rifle cans are very good).
Second Tier:
Gemtech (Threadmounts might be top tier, depending on how/if they are welded. I would need to see them made to be sure).
SWR (Threadmounts are good, needs another mount design to be in the top tier).
SRT (338 can is top tier, others are not welded. All are quiet. Would need to weld all cans and have a nice quick-mount to be in top-tier).
3rd Tier:
Johns Guns
Tac Inv.
Various random makers.
Worlwide: Ase Utra and B&T are good.
It is really a hard question because some companies make a few things as well as anyone, but not other things.
For US rifle:
Top Tier:
AAC (all welded, great mount, accurate, very durable, good sound, nice machining, 556s are light weight).
Surefire (all welded, nice mount, accurate, lightweight, ok sound).
Ops Inc (all welded, unexceptional mount, accurate, good sound).
KAC (all welded, sometimes accurate, good sound).
YHM (so far their rifle cans are very good).
Second Tier:
Gemtech (Threadmounts might be top tier, depending on how/if they are welded. I would need to see them made to be sure).
SWR (Threadmounts are good, needs another mount design to be in the top tier).
SRT (338 can is top tier, others are not welded. All are quiet. Would need to weld all cans and have a nice quick-mount to be in top-tier).
3rd Tier:
Johns Guns
Tac Inv.
Various random makers.
Worlwide: Ase Utra and B&T are good.
Re: Give your top five suppressors builders
Typically that phrase "top five XYZ makers", implies sales volume, not quality or anything else. Dell, HP, IBM are the top 3 PC makers. GM, Ford are the top 2 auto makers in the US. Is that what you mean?bohica wrote:Could you fellas take the time for me to list what you think the top five suppressor makers with number 1 being the best and 5 the worse?
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Gemtech's rifle cans are very good for sound. I picked them as tier-2 for a few reasons:l2e wrote:I will have to disagree. Gemtech should be Tier 1 for sure. I have tested a HALO next to an M4-2000 and the suppression was equal. Welded design doesn't necessarily make it good.
1. It is unclear to what degree they weld. They told me they do some laser and/or TIG welding, but I would like to see it myself.
2. Their Quik-Mount has internal moving parts. It might be ok in the latest form (I only tried the previous BiLock version), but it is not as good as the AAC, YHM, or Surefire mount in my opinion.
Top 5 in my opinion: (All are superior suppressor makers and are all competent makers of the products they sell. I wouldn't hesitate to buy any product from any one of these makers.)
1. Gemtech (has been doing it longest I am pretty sure)
2. AAC
3. SWR Manufacturing
4. Tactical Innovations
5. SRT
Honorable Mention: (in no order)
1. John Norrell Arms
2. John's Guns
3. Surefire
4. AWC
5. Lauer
6. SoundTech (Mark White's firm)
With the exception of Surefire and AWC, and possibly Lauer, the others are custom manufacturers and will build whatever you want.
There are other companies that I may have left out, and for that I am sorry and there are no intentions of leaving anyone out.
1. Gemtech (has been doing it longest I am pretty sure)
2. AAC
3. SWR Manufacturing
4. Tactical Innovations
5. SRT
Honorable Mention: (in no order)
1. John Norrell Arms
2. John's Guns
3. Surefire
4. AWC
5. Lauer
6. SoundTech (Mark White's firm)
With the exception of Surefire and AWC, and possibly Lauer, the others are custom manufacturers and will build whatever you want.
There are other companies that I may have left out, and for that I am sorry and there are no intentions of leaving anyone out.
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You are right when you said Gem-Tech cans are very good. Then you say they are second tier because of the welding, even though they are welded Laser/Tig and you freely admit you *don’t know* about how well they are welded. As for the mounting system I have seen them criticized here for having moving parts but I have never seen a post about them having a problem, can’t say that about some of the mounts with no moving parts. You say you have not tried the new bilock yet somehow you know it is not as good?WTF At any rate they are one of the major suppliers for the military so they are doing something right.rsilvers wrote:
Gemtech's rifle cans are very good for sound. I picked them as tier-2 for a few reasons:
1. It is unclear to what degree they weld. They told me they do some laser and/or TIG welding, but I would like to see it myself.
2. Their Quik-Mount has internal moving parts. It might be ok in the latest form (I only tried the previous BiLock version), but it is not as good as the AAC, YHM, or Surefire mount in my opinion.
Laser engraving = good
Laser welding = bad
No moving parts but sometimes shots loose = good
Moving parts but can not shoot loose = bad
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Yes I have had a big problem with my BiLock and had to hammer it off more than once. I did not mention it because I was not trying to be a hard-ass about it. I don't intentionally say things without reason.
Yes, it is correct I don't know to what degree, if any, Gemtech cans are welded inside. I can't recommend them as top-tier without knowing if it is done well. But yes, it is possible they are welded in a way I would like.
I happen to have verified that Ops Inc, KAC, Surefire, YHM, AAC, and SRT's 338 can are all weld in a suitable way. I have not been able to verify it for Gemtech.
Yes, it is correct I don't know to what degree, if any, Gemtech cans are welded inside. I can't recommend them as top-tier without knowing if it is done well. But yes, it is possible they are welded in a way I would like.
I happen to have verified that Ops Inc, KAC, Surefire, YHM, AAC, and SRT's 338 can are all weld in a suitable way. I have not been able to verify it for Gemtech.
This has been pointed out before, but this welded issue is only important to you as it seems not to bother the military since they use Gemtech cans.
The AAC mount sticks too, its been posted on AR15 on more than one occasion. There is no perfect system.
Gemtech is NOT a second tier manufacturer anymore than AAC is.
The AAC mount sticks too, its been posted on AR15 on more than one occasion. There is no perfect system.
Gemtech is NOT a second tier manufacturer anymore than AAC is.
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First of all, I don't agree with your choices either, but we can each give our opinions. I am claiming mine are well reasoned and based on my experiences.1928A1 wrote:This has been pointed out before, but this welded issue is only important to you as it seems not to bother the military since they use Gemtech cans.
The AAC mount sticks too, its been posted on AR15 on more than one occasion. There is no perfect system.
Gemtech is NOT a second tier manufacturer anymore than AAC is.
Gemtech does not seem to win military trials. KAC and Ops Inc do, and AAC was picked for the SCAR program by FN. The photo of the HALO in Iraq was cool and all, and if it was my product I would be very proud, but all it proves is that some individual soldier or unit decided to use their personal credit card and buy a Gemtech can. That is far from proof that welding does not matter.
Make your best argument why it is better to not weld? The only reasons is less cost to manufacture and some people think it is good enough to save the extra $20 in manufacturing costs. AAC, KAC, Ops Inc, Surefire, and Ops inc go ahead and spent the extra money to be sure.
Does YHM actually make silencers? When I talked to them at SHOT, I thought they said SoundTech made their can. Now I cannot remember if they said that, or if they said they have licensed the SoundTech design and make it in-house, or what the story is.rsilvers wrote:You left out YHM.
Anyway, my YHM Phantom came in this week and it is really nice.
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You are incorrect. No rifle silencer will win any U.S. Military contract if it is not welded. There is a reason that AAC, KAC, Ops, Surefire, etc. weld...it isn't because it is easier and less expensive. Welding is the best and only way to build rifle silencers. Welding gives the silencer durability. Laser tac-welding does not count. Welding is not probably needed for the average civilian user. When the baffles become loose you simply shoot the silencer until the carbon build-up stops the rattle.1928A1 wrote:This has been pointed out before, but this welded issue is only important to you as it seems not to bother the military since they use Gemtech cans.
The AAC mount sticks too, its been posted on AR15 on more than one occasion. There is no perfect system.
Gemtech is NOT a second tier manufacturer anymore than AAC is.
The AAC mount does not stick. You are correct that there is not a perfect solution. But, having moving parts in a mount will probably never even be a consideration.
AAC silencers are welded inside and out. The mounts contain no internal moving parts, and never will. They are compact, strong, light weight, accurate, with very little zero-shift. The mounts are simple, reliable, and durable.
There are many good silencer makers. It is easy to see who goes the extra mile to produce excellent silencers. It is never by accident or cutting corners in order to save money.
I can show you a picture of a John's Guns 5.56mm suppressor in Iraq, it also has not been awarded a military contract.
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YHM makes the silencers in-house. They licensed the technology from Mark White. Their silencers seem to be excellent. All welded, a great mount, and an excellent flash hider. A great value.renegade wrote:Does YHM actually make silencers? When I talked to them at SHOT, I thought they said SoundTech made their can. Now I cannot remember if they said that, or if they said they have licensed the SoundTech design and make it in-house, or what the story is.rsilvers wrote:You left out YHM.
Anyway, my YHM Phantom came in this week and it is really nice.
Bullshit.Kevin/AAC wrote:You are incorrect. No rifle silencer will win any U.S. Military contract if it is not welded. There is a reason that AAC, KAC, Ops, Surefire, etc. weld...it isn't because it is easier and less expensive. Welding is the best and only way to build rifle silencers. Welding gives the silencer durability. Laser tac-welding does not count. Welding is not probably needed for the average civilian user. When the baffles become loose you simply shoot the silencer until the carbon build-up stops the rattle.1928A1 wrote:This has been pointed out before, but this welded issue is only important to you as it seems not to bother the military since they use Gemtech cans.
The AAC mount sticks too, its been posted on AR15 on more than one occasion. There is no perfect system.
Gemtech is NOT a second tier manufacturer anymore than AAC is.
The AAC mount does not stick. You are correct that there is not a perfect solution. But, having moving parts in a mount will probably never even be a consideration.
AAC silencers are welded inside and out. The mounts contain no internal moving parts, and never will. They are compact, strong, light weight, accurate, with very little zero-shift. The mounts are simple, reliable, and durable.
There are many good silencer makers. It is easy to see who goes the extra mile to produce excellent silencers. It is never by accident or cutting corners in order to save money.
I can show you a picture of a John's Guns 5.56mm suppressor in Iraq, it also has not been awarded a military contract.
That's a "unwelded" Gemtech can. That kid didn't buy it himself. So, either the can is welded and Silvers is lying about it or playing dumb, or its an unwelded can and the military still uses them anyway since it doesn't matter.
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Do you know the guy in the picture? How do you know that he didn't buy it himself? Soldiers order silencers directly from us on a weekly basis for deployment. How do you know that is not an LEI silencer, that's who they licensed it from? B&T also uses the mount.1928A1 wrote:Bullshit.Kevin/AAC wrote:You are incorrect. No rifle silencer will win any U.S. Military contract if it is not welded. There is a reason that AAC, KAC, Ops, Surefire, etc. weld...it isn't because it is easier and less expensive. Welding is the best and only way to build rifle silencers. Welding gives the silencer durability. Laser tac-welding does not count. Welding is not probably needed for the average civilian user. When the baffles become loose you simply shoot the silencer until the carbon build-up stops the rattle.1928A1 wrote:This has been pointed out before, but this welded issue is only important to you as it seems not to bother the military since they use Gemtech cans.
The AAC mount sticks too, its been posted on AR15 on more than one occasion. There is no perfect system.
Gemtech is NOT a second tier manufacturer anymore than AAC is.
The AAC mount does not stick. You are correct that there is not a perfect solution. But, having moving parts in a mount will probably never even be a consideration.
AAC silencers are welded inside and out. The mounts contain no internal moving parts, and never will. They are compact, strong, light weight, accurate, with very little zero-shift. The mounts are simple, reliable, and durable.
There are many good silencer makers. It is easy to see who goes the extra mile to produce excellent silencers. It is never by accident or cutting corners in order to save money.
I can show you a picture of a John's Guns 5.56mm suppressor in Iraq, it also has not been awarded a military contract.
That's a "unwelded" Gemtech can. That kid didn't buy it himself. So, either the can is welded and Silvers is lying about it or playing dumb, or its an unwelded can and the military still uses them anyway since it doesn't matter.
How is not welding better?
I'm not so sure about the durable part. The finish on the FH certainly isn't. My AAC phantom FH is down to bare metal on about 30-40% of the FH after only 15-20 mount-dismount cycles. I've put 3-lug suppressors through many hundreds of mount/dismount cycles without even scratching the finish on the male (barrel) side. What finish is being used?Kevin/AAC wrote:1928A1 wrote:This has been pointed out before, but this welded issue is only important to you as it seems not to bother the military since they use Gemtech cans.
The AAC mount sticks too, its been posted on AR15 on more than one occasion. There is no perfect system.
Gemtech is NOT a second tier manufacturer anymore than AAC is.
The AAC mount does not stick. You are correct that there is not a perfect solution. But, having moving parts in a mount will probably never even be a consideration.
AAC silencers are welded inside and out. The mounts contain no internal moving parts, and never will. They are compact, strong, light weight, accurate, with very little zero-shift. The mounts are simple, reliable, and durable.
I noticed in the manual that the spring will eventually wear out (I assume causing the silencer to work loose). How frequently does the part need replaced?
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I agree. Paulson himself says, in the August 2004 Special Weapons for Military and police issue,Bullshit.
That's a "unwelded" Gemtech can. That kid didn't buy it himself. So, either the can is welded and Silvers is lying about it or playing dumb, or its an unwelded can and the military still uses them anyway since it doesn't matter.
"Gemtech' M4-96D sound soppressor was one of the first quick mount 5.56mm supressors in the market palce. The suppressor delivers outstanding sound supression that hundred of these cans are actively used by the U.S. military and several foreign militaries."
Let me guess the response from some kool aid AAC fans: Paulson lies and all these cans were bught by a benevolent squad leader from his own personal account because he has a bias toward Gemtech.
So what explains the destruction of half the finish on the FH but no destruction on the various 3-lug mounts I have seen? Is there anyway to correct that or do you just run bare metal FH's?rsilvers wrote:I believe the flash hiders are 4140 steel, which is then heat-treated, and then Parkerized.
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You guys are too busy pissing on each other and not reading what he wrote.
"No rifle silencer will win any U.S. Military contract if it is not welded"
That implies all contracts now require welding. It does not imply you cannot sole source, buy outside contract, use existing inventory or whatever to get something else. Dater has been supplying stuff to DOD/IC for decades, no surprise his stuff might still be in use.
"No rifle silencer will win any U.S. Military contract if it is not welded"
That implies all contracts now require welding. It does not imply you cannot sole source, buy outside contract, use existing inventory or whatever to get something else. Dater has been supplying stuff to DOD/IC for decades, no surprise his stuff might still be in use.
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I never saw what you are talking about. Parkerizing is not a paint.bp_968 wrote:So what explains the destruction of half the finish on the FH but no destruction on the various 3-lug mounts I have seen? Is there anyway to correct that or do you just run bare metal FH's?rsilvers wrote:I believe the flash hiders are 4140 steel, which is then heat-treated, and then Parkerized.
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The KAC can and Ops inc can survived and won military trials. Other sales certainly count for something, but they are individual or unit sales. In some cases they buy a little from lots of sources to see what they like. I don't mean to downplay the Gemtech being in that photo. Like I said, if that was my can, I would be very excited, and it deserves all due credit.
I am just saying that the photo is not evidence that welding is not important or that screw-together cans are as good. Are they good enough? In many cases they must be, because they continue to sell.
I am just saying that the photo is not evidence that welding is not important or that screw-together cans are as good. Are they good enough? In many cases they must be, because they continue to sell.
Ok. Makes sense. What about other calibers? Who, for example, has a DOD contract for MP5 cans? Did the military ever do a trial for these?rsilvers wrote:The KAC can and Ops inc can survived and won military trials. Other sales certainly count for something, but they are individual or unit sales. In some cases they buy a little from lots of sources to see what they like. I don't mean to downplay the Gemtech being in that photo. Like I said, if that was my can, I would be very excited, and it deserves all due credit.
I am just saying that the photo is not evidence that welding is not important or that screw-together cans are as good. Are they good enough? In many cases they must be, because they continue to sell.