.22 Hornet suppressed vs. .223 Suppressed?

[libertyman777]

Would the Hornet be the better case to consider for subsonic .224 centerfire? I'm just wondering if the smaller case capacity would make it easier to work with and safer?

Paul

[gdragon]

.22lr would be the best case for subsonic 22. Is there some reason you really want to go with a centerfire?

[libertyman777]

Yeah. I'm getting my .22lr can reworked and the new internals will handle everything up to .22 Hornet. So I'm considering reloading and casting bullets since I will now be able to break the can down and clean it.

Paul

[TROOPER]

There aren't that many hosts for the .22 Hornet, and the ones that I have seen (bear in mind I haven't been looking) are most definitely not semi-auto.

Why not .22 LR? Especially if your can is now break-down? I don'[t know that you can get significantly heavier bullets in the .22 Hornet platform. Or at least, not heavy enough to be worth it.

[libertyman777]

There aren't that many hosts for the .22 Hornet, and the ones that I have seen (bear in mind I haven't been looking) are most definitely not semi-auto.

Why not .22 LR? Especially if your can is now break-down? I don'[t know that you can get significantly heavier bullets in the .22 Hornet platform. Or at least, not heavy enough to be worth it.

Well that's the kind of thing I was wondering. I was considering a Savage 40 to mate up with my "new" (new innards) can. I've never loaded the Hornet round and haven't tried to cast an .224 bullets either.

I could run it supersonic and have a round that would run between 22 mag and .223. The can is rated for Hornet but not .223.

I wonder what the really light jacketed varmint bullets will do at subsonic speeds? Do you think it would do better than a .22 lr subsonic HP?

Paul

[Lindenwood]

The problem with .22Hornet is that the rifles available don't have a fast enough twists to do much better than what you can with a .22lr. Basically, at those velocities you'd probably be limited to maybe 40gr bullets anyways, so you might as well go with .22lr.

A .223 rifle, with the typical 1:9" twist ratio, will work much better for a subsonic use.

I did a lot of research on the Hornet because I was looking into a rifle with greater range and power that could still share a good-quality .22lr can with my 10/2. But I finally came to realize that unless one simply wants the novelty of the Hornet cartridge itself, it's just as easy to down-load a .223 to Hornet ballistics. Then, not only could one match everything the Hornet can do (with much longer case life due to the far lower pressures as wel as the stronger case itself), but one could both go with heavier bullets at the same subsonic velocities (up to perhaps 65gr with the aforemetioned twist), but one still then has the versatility to load all the way up to maximum .223 loads for medium-sized game, or long-range varminting with light, fast bullets.

And then of course there are the advantages of cheaper cases, as well as more cheap ammo available for practice or stocking up (SHTF? ).



For you, other than the novelty of the .22 Hornet cartridge, the only other concern would be accidentally loading full-power .223 cartridges into it and potentially damaging the can. But if you are careful at all I don't think that should really be a problem.

[libertyman777]

The problem with .22Hornet is that the rifles available don't have a fast enough twists to do much better than what you can with a .22lr. Basically, at those velocities you'd probably be limited to maybe 40gr bullets anyways, so you might as well go with .22lr.

A .223 rifle, with the typical 1:9" twist ratio, will work much better for a subsonic use.

I did a lot of research on the Hornet because I was looking into a rifle with greater range and power that could still share a good-quality .22lr can with my 10/2. But I finally came to realize that unless one simply wants the novelty of the Hornet cartridge itself, it's just as easy to down-load a .223 to Hornet ballistics. Then, not only could one match everything the Hornet can do (with much longer case life due to the far lower pressures as wel as the stronger case itself), but one could both go with heavier bullets at the same subsonic velocities (up to perhaps 65gr with the aforemetioned twist), but one still then has the versatility to load all the way up to maximum .223 loads for medium-sized game, or long-range varminting with light, fast bullets.

And then of course there are the advantages of cheaper cases, as well as more cheap ammo available for practice or stocking up (SHTF? ).



For you, other than the novelty of the .22 Hornet cartridge, the only other concern would be accidentally loading full-power .223 cartridges into it and potentially damaging the can. But if you are careful at all I don't think that should really be a problem.

Yeah, that makes sense. I didn't think about using the can with the downloaded .223 but as long as I don't surpass .22 Hornet performance, I'll be okay.

Thanks,

Paul

[JohnInNH]

I adamantly disagree

If your rifle had a FAST twist and a Hornet chamber it would be a much better heavy bullet subsonic host than the .223. The brass holds less and will only have to push the 70-80 gr bullets at 1050

If I was going to build a dedicated 22 cal subsonic rifle it would be a hornet. 1:6 minimum twist. Check all the barrel makers and see what twist you can get. 1:5? Krieger makes a 1:6 Pacnor makes a 1:6 fro PacNor: "PAC-NOR has the capability to make barrels with special requirements such as twist, rifling configuration"

The cases should last forever The long neck will not need to be crimped and they make some nice heavy cast bullets You could size the Lymen #22835 78 gr bullet (no gas check) and lube it. Then press it into the fired case with finger pressure.. the long neck will cover the grease groves.

Or look at some of he heavy match bullets. Then I would look at some neck sizing dies.

Use some software to calculate the twist you need for the longest bullets and you will be using.

Then you will have the best subsonic heavy 22 cal bullet set up you can get. The case will last 100's of loadings and you will only need 1/2 the case capacity to push a 80 (with lube) bullet at sub sonic speeds. It would get lost in a 223.

If I had the $ that is what *I* would do... 17" barrel will keep gas pressure down. With the can it will still be handy.

The case capacity is way to much in the .223 AND the brass is to thick and will not seal the chamber as well. The shape of the hornet brass is better too.

Stock twist is 1:16 on a lot of the old guns and are only good for 55 gr bullets at full speed (2325 fps)

I would call Pacnor. Build your heavy bullet subsonic 22 you really want... Use the .22 rimfire to do the rest. But a 60-80 gr bullet at 1050 is a lot different than a 40 gr one.

You may be able to shoot the heavy bullets at a fairly good clip. I would start with 5 g of 2400 and work up.

Quickload might give you a better starting point. Keep in mind the faster twist will increase the chamber pressure.

[libertyman777]

I adamantly disagree

If your rifle had a FAST twist and a Hornet chamber it would be a much better heavy bullet subsonic host than the .223. The brass holds less and will only have to push the 70-80 gr bullets at 1050

If I was going to build a dedicated 22 cal subsonic rifle it would be a hornet. 1:6 minimum twist. Check all the barrel makers and see what twist you can get. 1:5? Krieger makes a 1:6 Pacnor makes a 1:6 fro PacNor: "PAC-NOR has the capability to make barrels with special requirements such as twist, rifling configuration"

The cases should last forever The long neck will not need to be crimped and they make some nice heavy cast bullets You could size the Lymen #22835 78 gr bullet (no gas check) and lube it. Then press it into the fired case with finger pressure.. the long neck will cover the grease groves.

Or look at some of he heavy match bullets. Then I would look at some neck sizing dies.

Use some software to calculate the twist you need for the longest bullets and you will be using.

Then you will have the best subsonic heavy 22 cal bullet set up you can get. The case will last 100's of loadings and you will only need 1/2 the case capacity to push a 80 (with lube) bullet at sub sonic speeds. It would get lost in a 223.

If I had the $ that is what *I* would do... 17" barrel will keep gas pressure down. With the can it will still be handy.

The case capacity is way to much in the .223 AND the brass is to thick and will not seal the chamber as well. The shape of the hornet brass is better too.

Stock twist is 1:16 on a lot of the old guns and are only good for 55 gr bullets at full speed (2325 fps)

I would call Pacnor. Build your heavy bullet subsonic 22 you really want... Use the .22 rimfire to do the rest. But a 60-80 gr bullet at 1050 is a lot different than a 40 gr one.

You may be able to shoot the heavy bullets at a fairly good clip. I would start with 5 g of 2400 and work up.

Quickload might give you a better starting point. Keep in mind the faster twist will increase the chamber pressure.

Wow!! No that's what I'm talking about but it's way over my head. I do reload but this is almost like making a "wildcat" cartridge.

A 60-80 grain, cast bullet, with a big ole' hollow point cavity would make a fine hunting round I would think, right at 200 fpe at the muzzle (80 grain). Very good small game/predator round.

I've just sent my can to Liberty Suppressors for rework so I can break it down for cleaning. I would think that it would handle any .22 caliber subsonic loading just fine.

I wonder if I should try to make this work with my Savage 12 or should a get a rifle already chambered in .22 Hornet and rebarrel it?

Paul

[Chondro]

I never intended to mess with subonics for my .223 but after shooting them I started pumping them out by the thousands..
My most common load is with a 60 grain bullet..I have 70's that work perfect as well..I have heavier bullets here but its to cold to go to the range and see if they are stable enough to shoot through the can..
I'm stuck with a 1:9 twist..
Your gonna love your Liberty Retrofit!!!! Congrats!!!

[ranb]

i agree that the hornet is a better case for the subsonic 224 caliber bullet. Even SSK uses it as their "22 caliber whisper". It still needs the fast twist (at least 1-8 ) to stablize the heavier bullets. A 80 grain bullet moving 1050 fps is much better than a 40 grain 22lr bullet moving the same speed.

Ranb

[Twinsen]

When I realized that a set of dies for .22 hornet and the components to load up 100 rounds of the stuff costs less than a box of 50 rounds, I started looking into reloading it. I gotta find out my twist.

Either way, bookmarked this.

[-k-]

A 80 grain bullet moving 1050 fps is much better than a 40 grain 22lr bullet moving the same speed.Ranb

Do you have some way to quantify that?

The .22LR has more than enough penetration for anything I would consider shooting with it(or a .223 subsonic). I'm not sure what that 80gr bullet is going to do that the 40gr isn't?

[Twinsen]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it would be twice as powerful.

[Chondro]

It may be because I'm so tired but I would assume it would have double the kinetic energy..
I'd guess more because most subsonic .22 is really only moving out at about 8-900fps..
I tell you the 60 and 70 grain bullets really have an impact at 1050..40 grain subs not so much..

[-k-]

Given that I get enough penetration with the 40gr bullet what is a bullet of the same diameter and greater weight going the same speed bring to the table?

My question is, how exactly is that 80gr bullet going to destroy more of my target? How do you use that "power" on your target, not just more penetration? (that I don't need)

[Twinsen]

I assumed ballistic tip ammo is the purpose here. Transfer more energy.

[libertyman777]

I never intended to mess with subonics for my .223 but after shooting them I started pumping them out by the thousands..
My most common load is with a 60 grain bullet..I have 70's that work perfect as well..I have heavier bullets here but its to cold to go to the range and see if they are stable enough to shoot through the can..
I'm stuck with a 1:9 twist..
Your gonna love your Liberty Retrofit!!!! Congrats!!!

Yeah, I can't wait.

A 80 grain bullet moving 1050 fps is much better than a 40 grain 22lr bullet moving the same speed.Ranb

Do you have some way to quantify that?

The .22LR has more than enough penetration for anything I would consider shooting with it(or a .223 subsonic). I'm not sure what that 80gr bullet is going to do that the 40gr isn't?

(velocity squared x bullet weight)/450240 = foot pounds of energy

If the same velocity is assumed then the progression of FPE is essentially a linear function.

What rifle are you guys planning on using as a host weapon? I would think that someone could make one for a short action Savage but I'm unsure about the smaller base of the Hornet. The .378 is well supported but I don't know about the .350 of the Hornet.

[-k-]

I don't know of any 80gr .224 bullet designed to expand/fragment at 1000fps, I wouldn't expect them to.

I don't think "power" or "energy" are useful to measure performance on a target. All I care about is the amount of damage done to the target.

[Chondro]

LOL..sorry I didn't know we were talking about paper targets..told ya I was to tired..

[-k-]

What rifle are you guys planning on using as a host weapon? I would think that someone could make one for a short action Savage but I'm unsure about the smaller base of the Hornet. The .378 is well supported but I don't know about the .350 of the Hornet.

The .221 Fireball is .378" bolt face. If you start with a fast twist .223 you could just have the barrel set back and chambered for the .221 so you don't have to buy a new barrel.

Given the same bullet construction the heavy bullet with more FPE will just penetrate deeper. Unless you need that extra penetration to get through your target both will do the same amount of damage.

[-k-]

Well Chondro, if all it takes is FPE I guess I should take the 147gr Ranger out of my 9mm and use 115gr FMJ? No thanks, I'll use the one that will destroy more tissue not the one that ranks higher on the FPE scale.

I am not trying to talk anyone out of a fun project, I just want to keep the expectations real. To me that means a subsonic .224 is no more useful for small game than a .22LR, not that it won't be fun.

[Chondro]

When I use rimfire to pop off the pesky critters around here rimfire takes them down..When I use .223 subsonics it bounces them good..You can see the energy difference when they are hit..not to mention the "thud"
Last rat I hit got turned inside out..
My vote for the .223 over the hornet is that .223 brass is still free to anyone willing to pick it up at there local range..Not that I suggest doing so..It should be left for me..
Its sort of like comparing what happens when a human size target is hit with a .308 and then a .50bmg..Velocity might be near the same..but after the .50 there are just pieces..

[alanparsons]

I use a SRT Hurricane XL on a TC in .22 Hornet. The thing is so quiet with regular ammo I might have to try a SS load. SBR a TC and use a choate folding stock

[Twinsen]

Well Chondro, if all it takes is FPE I guess I should take the 147gr Ranger out of my 9mm and use 115gr FMJ? No thanks, I'll use the one that will destroy more tissue not the one that ranks higher on the FPE scale.

It's energy transferred, not muzzle energy that is important. I'd love to be using the 75 grain vmax bullets subsonic. I assume they'll expand somewhat. If they don't expand at all, then yes they're doing the same damage as a .22 at 40 grains but they have much more wasted muzzle energy.

For rifle, I have a Ruger Model 3.